Talk:Human history

Start ancient history at 3500 BCE

Is anyone here strongly attached to 3000 BCE as the start date for ancient history? Here are three sources that start at 3500 BCE: [1], [2], [3]. I'm honestly not sure what is so special about 3500 since the earliest cuneiform is from 3300. I'm guessing historians just picked 3500 because it is a nice round number. Thoughts? Cerebellum (talk) 11:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably because it is the rough start of the Early Dynastic Period in Egypt. I can only see the 2nd of those. I'm not inclined to change it. In an article at this scale it hardly matters. Johnbod (talk) 16:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn’t actually explain why I want the change: to me history begins with writing, and writing was in use in both Egypt and Mesopotamia before 3000 BCE. Here are quotes for the sources you cannot see:

• The overall river valley civilization period, from 3500 to about 800 or 600 BCE, can be broken down into much more precise statements about changes and continuities in particular societies such as Mesopotamia and Egypt, where internal periodization schemes are quite elaborate, but at the same time this level of detail may not be necessary. [4]
• In this chapter we trace the rise of complex societies in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and the Indus River Valley from approximately 3500 to 1500 BCE....Our starting point roughly coincides with the origins of writing, allowing us to observe aspects of human experience not revealed by archaeological evidence alone.[5] Cerebellum (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

A little late here but I wouldn't be opposed to using 3500 BCE as a better starting date. IMO writing is generally what determines the start of "history", and given that we know, more or less, that writing existed pre-3000 BCE makes for a credible argument. Of course there's a lot of debate on just how old writing is, debates about proto-writing, etc. but based on current understanding 3500 BCE makes more sense to me than 3000 BCE. SwensonJ (talk) 21:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done, clearly no consensus for this change. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Pre-GA feedback

I noticed the feedback request, and since I am too late for peer review, here are some comments. First, of course - good job!

But... I fear this may suffer from some OR. For example, the sentence "However, not all scientific and technological advances in the second half of the 20th century required an initial military impetus" needs a citation, and while it of course won't be hard to find, first, this sentence is a essayish truism, and second, what follows is a list of technologies and I doubt that we can show that all of those techs were not influenced by military.

Removed this claim. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:30, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

As someone who is also just literary teaching a course on globalization, I am happy to see proto-globalization linked early, but the concept of globalization itself is missing. Ending paragraph says that "The period was marked by growing economic globalization", which is true, but. First, this is true for some older periods too. Second, why mention economic globalization but not cultural or political ones? They form the trinity of classic subtypes of globalization. Moving on, the paragraph seems not neutral, as it seems criticial of globalization ("with consequent increased risk to interlinked economies"), ignoring the postive aspects.

Added Along with industrialization came globalization, the increasing interconnection of world regions in the economic, political, and cultural spheres. Globalization began in the early 19th century and was enabled by improved transportation technologies such as railroads and steamships. Revised the sentence about 21st-century globalization to include benefits and well as risks. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Cerebellum I'd suggest revising this by adding the adjective modern before globalization, to distinguish from Proto-globalization mentioned already. Bonus points if we can work in how to add the link to Archaic globalization in a preceeding section. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 15:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The next sentence, "Beginning in the 2010s, many nations experienced democratic backsliding." is correct, but it immediately raises (for me) the question - why wasn't this mentioned earlier? Democratic backsliding occurred as early as the interbellum period. See Waves of democracy. A quick glance at democratic backsliding suggests the article suffers from major recentism problem, waves... covers this concept better. The lack of discussion of artificial intelligence in the last paragraph seems like another oversight (in fact, this tech is not mentioned anywhere in the article).

Added The first wave of democratization also took place between 1828 and 1926 and saw democratic institutions take root in 33 countries around the world, and removed the sentence about democratic backsliding. I still need to add AI. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

The concept (term) of decolonization is missing from the article, although there are almost 30 reference to colonialism (colonies, etc.).

Added. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Another quibble I'll have is with the sentnece "Germany, under Adolf Hitler, orchestrated the genocide of six million Jews in the Holocaust and murdered about as many non-Jews as Jews". The first part is correct, but the second is controversial. Although a RS is cited (Synder is a great scholar), see World War II casualties and Holocaust victims. Why don't we mention the total for WWII casualties? It might be better. And the Holocaust victims articles gives the 'Total' figure of 17 million, that's not "about as many". I know well that estimates of Holocaust victims are problematic and controversial, which is I'd strongly suggested avoding that quagmire by using the uncontroversial figure (range...) for WWII casualties rather than discussing non-Jewish Holocaust victims.

Removed non-Jewish Holocaust victims and added Estimates of the war's total casualties range from 55 to 80 million dead. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I hope I can provide more feedback, but I am a bit busy right now. Still, my semi-random glance and two paragraphs suggests this article still needs much more tweaking. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:18, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Thank you very much for your insightful comments! I removed the claim about the military and technology and I'm researching the other topics you mentioned to find sources. Great suggestions! --Cerebellum (talk) 10:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Some further comments as I am reading from the back, so on the final section (contemporary history). The first half of that section seems stronger than the second half and I have only a few minor comments:

• regarding "Such war being viewed as impractical, the superpowers instead waged proxy wars in non-nuclear-armed Third World countries. Between 1969 and 1972, as part of the Cold War Space Race, twelve American astronauts landed on the Moon and safely returned to Earth." Those sentences are not connected and the latter does not flow from the first. Split and/or move the second one?

Fixed. --Cerebellum (talk) 15:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• "partly due to its inability to compete economically with the United States and Western Europe" - citation needed? Not controversial, just weird citation layout in that sentence.

Added citation. --Cerebellum (talk) 15:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• "Most Western European and Central European countries gradually formed a political and economic community, the European Union, which expanded eastward to include former Soviet satellite states" - that's a bit off, as EU was formed earlier than the period discussed. EU's formation should be mentioned earlier, probably in the first paragraph, as a consequence of WW2. EU's expansion can be mentioned here, but it's a bit jarring that Baltic states are not mentioned - they were not Soviet satellites, but republics. So that sentence is not precise, needs qualifier or mentioning of the Baltic States.

Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• "and its economic inequality increased" - that's about USA. That's true and fine to mention, but it seems a bit US centric. We should say something about global trends in inequality. The same happened in China, for example (Income inequality in China).

Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Related, what I feel is missing from that entire chapter is the discussion of global progress in terms of poverty reduction discussed there and in other articles like International_inequality#Global_poverty. Stuff like "World GDP per person quintupled during the 20th century. In 1820, 75% of humanity lived on less than a dollar a day, while in 2001 only about 20% did.".

Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

And related to this, I think this article should also mention the concept of moral progress. The article also does not mention the concept of human rights and stuff discussed under Progress#Social_progress, just dicussing technological progress. Women rights seem to be mentioned only with regards to the suffrage/voting which is just a small dimension of important topic related to empowering half of the human population. Global inequality/North-South divide or such should be mentioned too. (Mind you, I still haven't read the entire article at this point, but CTRL+F is not showing me the concepts I expected to find here). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:55, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

You work faster than I do :) I will get to these. And you are quite right, those concepts are not in the article. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:32, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Cerebellum Just a ping - I think the above wasn't gotten around to yet? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

For women's rights we have Women fought to expand their civil rights[485] and began to enjoy greater access to education and the workforce. For global inequality we have At the same time, economic inequality increased both within individual countries and between rich and poor countries. For human rights/moral progress we have In a remarkable instance of moral progress, most of the world abolished slavery in the 19th century. Does that cover all of the bases? --Cerebellum (talk) 11:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Cerebellum Hmmm, not for human rights which is more than just abolishment of slavery. Can we add a sentence that would actually use this term (human rights)? I think it is very important to human history. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, I added The United Nations is associated with the human rights movement and adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Piotrus! I've attempted to address all the concerns you raised. In your opinion, is the article still a long way off from GA quality? --Cerebellum (talk) 00:44, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Cerebellum Thank you. I don't think it is a long way off, but I still need to read the rest. That said, GA review is a hit or miss, some reviewers are very competent and do a great job (perhaps some are to strict), and some are way too easy going, so it is hard to know which one you'll get. The real test is of course WP:FAC. Frankly, I could see the article passing GA already with some relatively minor tweaks like the ones I asked for above, but it will depend on the reviewer lottery. I'll to offer my feedback in the meantime, which should help. I prefer not to do a proper GA review as, a, it allows another set of eyes to provide feedback, and b, I am not a native English speaker and I am pretty easy going on the prose issues, and some reviewers can provide much better feedback then me when it comes to this plus some MoS issues (dashes, etc.) that again I tend to not care about. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Further comments as I am finishing (re)reading the contemporary history section:

• I am not sure whether "and acquired an empire of its own" when talking about US is neutral. From that article, I'd agree with the part that says "Many – perhaps most – scholars have decided that the United States lacks the key essentials of an empire... The best term is that the United States is a "hegemon." I suggest rephrasing this to use the term hegemony, not empire. Note that American hegemony still redirects to the same article - I think it should be its own article eventually.

I chose the link poorly. I meant to refer more narrowly to the US annexing the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Guam, and Hawaii. I changed the link to Spanish–American_War#Aftermath_in_the_United_States, hopefully that clarifies things. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd still recommend not using the term American empire or such and instead link to hegemony. I think American empire concept is not neutral (and hegemony is an important concept we should link to). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:37, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree with you on this one, to me occupying the Philippines for 50 years and fighting a war to keep them from becoming independent is imperialism. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

The issue is that this concept is a minority view, hence undue in this general article. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:21, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

• there are minor issues with key concepts not being blue linked, see my minor edits. I expect more blue links could be added and I'll be doing so myself, but this is something to think about.

Possibly because of this recent edit, intended to fix overlinking. Maybe the pendulum has now swung too far the other way. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Reviewing it, it was mostly ok, although I'd restore a few (ex. Judaism, links to subregions like Western Europe, etc. I've already restored link to an important concept (urbanization) I think. industrialization should be linked to (I think it is?). That said, I'd recommend using a script for checking for duplicate links (maybe some removals were duplicates?). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

• "The Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek genocides saw the systematic destruction, mass murder, and expulsion during World War I of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks" - seems like pointless repetition in the latter part?

Fixed. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

• related to what we discussed above, I'd still try to say something about (unspecified) millions of non-Jewish Holocaust victims as discussed in that article. USHMM wording quoted there seems reasonably neutral: "In addition, 11 million members of other groups were murdered during the "era of the Holocaust"".

Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Reading now through early modern history:

• as above, I think quite a few important concepts are not linked and should be: sefdom, Reformation, Arab slave trade, Kingdom of Zimbabwe , Mutapa, Butua, Oyo Empire. Kingdom of Benin. Kingdom of Kongo, Mughal Empire... I'll stop here for now with the list but I do think the article is clearly underlinked (and those are not links to more basic concepts removed above in the diff mentioned). Sometimes this leads to jarring inconsistency (ex. in the seemingly linking or not to some African states in single sentence; or later, Malacca Sultanate is not linked, but Johor Sultanate is in the very next sentence).
  • There are also occasional 'easter eggs, ex. "In Africa" (check link...).

I linked serfdom and removed the link to history in Africa, as far as I can tell the others are all linked at their first occurrence, for most of them it is in the post-classical history section. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• I'd suggest mentioning partitions of Poland, as the end of what was for 2-3 centuries the largest European state is likely worth a few words. Related to this, I think European history of that period needs at least one more paragraph. For another IMHO glaring ommission, there is nothing on the raise of Germany (Prussia). I see next to nothing about similar growth in power for the UK. Pax Britannica should be mentioned IMHO (if in the later section we already discussed). Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Scandinavia don't seem to mentined at all, which is IMHO again jarring considering mentions of non-European states later that arguably had much less impact on the world's history. I am well aware of systemic bias issues, but right now I find this section to be too biased in the opposite way.

Yes, there are definitely many topics not covered in this article. What I'm struggling with is that I want to keep the article under 10,000 words per WP:SIZERULE, right now I'm at 9938 so for everything I add, I need to cut something else. And I'm not sure what to cut to add the topics you mentioned. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

It's tough. If I see something not relevant I'll suggest removal, but the topics I mentioned above are, IMHO, quite vital. It is strange for an article on human history to mention let's say Malacca Sultanate but not Prussia. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

This issue makes me suspect that the article will never pass FAC. I can't think of an external criterion to use to decide what topics should be included. If I cut some information on Africa and Asia to add another paragraph on Europe, that opens up the article to charges of Eurocentrism. If I use Google Scholar results for, say, Prussia and Malacca as a metric, someone can say that just reflects systemic bias in the sources. Any ideas you have on judging relative importance are most welcome! --Cerebellum (talk) 12:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Bias in sources is an issue, but IMHO we have no choice but to represent it to some degree per NPOV and DUE. Our mission is to inform, not to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I still have much to read but I think the article is too biased towards non-modern history. I, at least, agree with the school that modern era is more important than past eras. In either case, I recommend adding few sentences to the modern era about stuff I mentioned. We can figure out what to cut later. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

• "However, China and Japan would later pursue isolationist policies designed to eliminate foreign influence" (presumably those have dedicated articles that could be linked to - Haijin, Sakoku). Ditto for "Diseases introduced by Europeans devastated American" (Native_American_disease_and_epidemics#European_contact). Consider this comment representative of wider issues of underlinking to such concepts I see, partially related to what I mentioned before.

Quite right, done. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for contributing your time and expertise to this article! Your comments are pure gold to me. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Section break

Now for Post-classical history.

First thought: "The era is commonly dated from the 5th-century fall of the Western Roman Empire" - I wonder if Chinese or Japanese histories (for example, considering major non-Western developed cultures and historiographies) use the same periodization? From what I know, they do not for their own history, but I am not sure what they do for the world history. Overview of what is mentioned at ja:世界の歴史 or zh:世界歷史 would be quite interesting and likely valuable, although it is a task more for FA level then GA level. But it is something we should do one day, I think.

Second, zooming back to smaller issues: "along with the plagues of the 14th century" - what other plagues were significant outside Black Death? Can we link to some article? Second plague pandemic perhaps? Which makes me wonder why first and third have not been linked (Spanish flu is linked later, good). That's it for now, will resume review as soon as I have time for that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Good points. I would prefer a simpler periodization based on modes of production - hunting/gathering, agricultural, and industrial. But I think we would need community consensus to make that change. And I agree on adding the other plague epidemics. Currently I'm having too much fun at AfC and I seem to have lost interest in this article so I don't see myself editing it much in the near future, hopefully other editors can pick up where I left off! --Cerebellum (talk) 19:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

We are facing no deadline. Do you want me to continue the review? As for periodization change, I think it's fine to be bold. You can start a new thread with that suggestion and wait a week or two to see if anyone else comments. RfC probably would be an overkill unless this becomes a contested issue. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

It's up to you! If you continue, I won't be implementing your suggestions. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello Piotrus and thanks for your detailed pre-GA feedback so far. Cerebellum and myself have decided to give it another go, see the discussion at User_talk:Cerebellum#Human_history. As I understand, some comments of your review of the subsection on early modern Europe were not fully resolved last time. Cerebellum did not add an extra paragraph but they rewrote part of that subsection in the meantime to address the concerns. Do you think it is better now? Some of the developments involving Europe are also discussed in the section overview before the subsection "Europe". If you have more feedback on the remaining sections, that would be much appreciated. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Phlsph7 Just noting I saw your question but it may take me some time to get back to it. Feel free to go to GA without my feedback (I'll try to offer it but I can't be sure when, very busy until July...). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. We'll see how it goes, it could be a while before a reviewer picks up the nomination. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I took a light skim through the article and found only minor stuff to change after spot checking a few different elements. I would probably find more to tweak if I took a deeper look, but overall, it seems like it's been improved and isn't far off from GA standard. Kudos! The images seem decent — for this article, ones depicting events I think are generally more compelling than ones depicting buildings. Sdkb ^talk 06:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I nominated the article and the review has already started so I'm curious to see how it goes. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:17, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@Phlsph7 You motivated me to offer some thoughts on the Ancient history section :)

• somewhere around "In 508 BCE, the world's first democratic system of government was instituted" I think we should link to history of democracy

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• Underlinking is still an issue. Link bureaucracy, Western civilization, perhaps technological progress, concrete, stirrup (more suggestions below)

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• I think we have a bit of pro-Europe bias in Regional Empires, too much about Europe vs, too little about Asia (China) and Africa. Ditto for the next section (Declines, falls, and resurgence) which seems to be just about Asia and Europe

  Done for Regional Empires, still need to do for "Declines, falls, and resurgences". --Cerebellum (talk) 12:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  Looking at the decline/fall section made me wonder what the point of the section is. I think we can do without it, so I combined it with the regional empires section. Feel free to revert if it is not helpful. --Cerebellum (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Technology developed sporadically" - perhaps a good place to link history of technology

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Greek science, technology, and mathematics" - link Ancient Greek technology

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Roman Empire's decline " - link Fall of the Western Roman Empire

  There is already a link earlier in the sentence "The Western Roman Empire fell in 476 CE to German influence under Odoacer". Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• "The Romans were also accomplished builders" - I think we should mention and link to Roman aqueduct here

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Most ancient societies practiced slavery, which was particularly prevalent in Athens and Rome, where slaves" - I'd link to slavery in ancient Greece and slavery in ancient Rome in that paragraph

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• "horse-based nomads" should probably link to Eurasian nomads

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• missing topics: end of Persia?

  I think we covered this in the post-classical section: Before the advent of Islam in the 7th century, the Middle East was dominated by the Byzantine and Sasanian Empires, which frequently fought each other for control of several disputed regions...The birth of Islam created a new contender that quickly surpassed both of these empires. Let me know if you want more. --Cerebellum (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Cerebellum That's fine but can we connect Sasanian Empire to the Persia somehow? Persia is a more famous concept than Sasania. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Done :) --Cerebellum (talk) 11:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• will try to find time to comment more but again, no promises

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Reading through contemporary history again, three thoughts for now:

• we mention NATO but not the Warsaw Pact

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Development efforts in Latin America were hindered by political instability, some of which was caused by the United States as it repeatedly intervened in the region". Fine, but I can't shake the feeling the article has slight anti-US bias - where is, for example, a matching sentence about how development efforts in Europe and Asia were hindered by communism? I notice we acknowledge some criticism of China (Great Chinese Famine), but there is not a single criticism of USSR anywhere in the text, including the World Wars section. I think we should link to (perhaps not all) but something from the list of Mass killings under communist regimes, Crimes against humanity under communist regimes, Criticism of communist party rule, Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, Holodomor, etc.

  That's a good point. I added a sentence focusing specifically on atrocities under Stalin's rule. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Russian invasion of Ukraine likely merits mention, perhaps along the lines of something like "long era of relative peace in Europe ended with"... relative could link to the Yugoslav civil war, perhaps.

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:26, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I support this for GA now :) If I have any more thoughts, I'll post here in the future. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all the helpful suggestion! Phlsph7 (talk) 07:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Why is this a helpful image?

Re [6] – why is an impossible to read image of the entire human history helpful in the section called "Post-classical history (c. 500 CE – c. 1500 CE)"? Aza24 (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

That image should be removed in my view. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:46, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

agree, looks useless and almost unreadable. Artem.G (talk) 22:02, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

It's quite interesting at full expansion. Maybe it should be added purely as a link to that. Johnbod (talk) 18:58, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I was the one that added the image. I agree that it should be removed in favor of "no pictures, only navbox" approach. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Hominins

The article says: "The term hominin denotes human ancestors that lived after the split with chimpanzees and bonobos." But if you hover over the linked article, it shows a picture of a man and a chimp, and in the article, the picture is captioned: "Two hominins: A human holding a chimpanzee". Seems contradictory. 78.54.145.98 (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, I adjusted our formulation. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Human history/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Phlsph7 (talk · contribs) 11:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: AirshipJungleman29 (talk · contribs) 14:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll take this—such an important article should be reviewed ASAP. I'll leave comments over the next week or two, if that's ok. This review will be used in the WikiCup. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello AirshipJungleman29, I appreciate you reviewing this core article. I've gotten used to waiting several months before nominations are picked up so I'm happy that this is not the case this time. Given the size of the article, I don't think we have to stick to the 7-day length recommendation. I'll ping @Cerebellum: so they are aware of the review. Good luck for WikiCup round 3. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. @Phlsph7 and Cerebellum: can I ask whether you would prefer a normal GA review, or a more detailed one with FAC in mind? I am happy to provide either. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

We haven't really talked about FA yet. I'm not sure if Cerebellum agrees, but from my side, the prime focus for now is on GA. Nonetheless, if you spot possible improvements that are not strictly speaking required for GA, I would be interested to hear about them. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Understood. Onwards! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

For reference

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Lead section

• For an article just under 10,000 words, the lead is a bit short at 272 words—it is effectively two long paragraphs (MOS:LEADLENGTH).
  • As a result, the weighting is completely out of track (MOS:LEADREL). It takes six sentences to summarise the "Prehistory" section, but the "Ancient history", "Post-classical history", and "Early modern period" sections, all of which are longer, are described in three total.
  • The "Academic research" section is not touched on at all.
• The opening paragraph does not adequately define the topic (MOS:OPEN, MOS:FIRST etc.).
• I'll go over the prose when the above MOS issues have been fixed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  I expanded the lead to 340 words. It now roughly has the following structure:

  1. paragraph: define the topic and very short summary of section "Academic research"
  2. paragraph: prehistory
  3. paragraph: ancient and post-classical
  4. paragraph: early and late modern

  It has still a little more on prehistory than the others but I hope this is not too serious. We might be able to shorten the Ice Age part if it is still an issue. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think the largest section ("Post-classical history") having just one lead sentence is still not great weighting. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I added 2 more sentences. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• The opening paragraph/sentence is now superb. Well done.
• "and later Greek philosophy, Buddhism, Confucianism, Jainism, Judaism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism" these are in alphabetical order aside from Greek philosophy, which implies that it is more important than any of the others. Is that intended?

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Also, I think a sentence I quite liked summarising the "Regional empires" subsection has been cut; I think its reintroduction would be beneficial, otherwise there is no discussion of political history between "emergence of early civilisations" and "Byzantine Empire, the Islamic Caliphates, the Mongol Empire, and various Chinese dynasties"

  I included the idea in a different form. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• "from about 500 to 1500 CE, witnessed the rise of Christianity and Islam " slight nitpick: Christianity had already "risen" long before 500; I think a different word is needed.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Influential technological innovations were the invention of gunpowder and the printing press." this is slightly stilted and unclear

  I reformulated it, but I'm not sure that it is much of an improvement. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• The first explicit discussion of war in the lead is "the devastating impact of two world wars". I don't really know if that's ideal—thoughts?

  The sentence "These developments were accompanied by the rise and decline of major empires, such as the Byzantine Empire, the Islamic Caliphates, the Mongol Empire, and various Chinese dynasties." could be expanded with "..., frequently involving violent conflicts." Another option would be to mention that at the end of the prehistory paragraph that organized warfare only really became possible because of "The growing complexity of human societies". Phlsph7 (talk) 12:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Similarly, thoughts on whether the negative impacts of colonialism warrant a small mention?

  We could expand the sentence "During the early modern period, spanning from 1500 to 1800 CE, European powers explored and colonized regions worldwide, intensifying cultural and economic exchange." with "while leading to significant exploitation of indigenous populations."

• "Weapon destructiveness" seems rather out of place in that ending list, however.

  I replaced it with "military capabilities". Phlsph7 (talk) 12:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Overall, a much more suitable lead. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

General comments

• I've never heard the term "Greater Middle East" before this article;its definition normally includes the whole of North Africa, but this article doesn't seem to do that. You have also used it as the place to discuss Central Asia, but it seems that definition is not universally agreed on ([7], [8], [9]). Some rethinking of sections may be needed.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

What about changing the section title to "West and Central Asia"? And moving North Africa to the Africa section. It's a clunky title but the current title certainly violates the principle of least astonishment by saying that Central Asia is in the Middle East. If we break off Central Asia into its own section, we will run into trouble because there is only one sentence on Central Asia in the early modern section. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like an improvement. I would agree with you both that Central Asia does not come to mind at all from "Greater Middle East". Aza24 (talk) 04:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Surely things like photograph/film/recording are fundamental paradigm shifts, and warrant mention? – Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Added. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Unless I'm missing them. I should say, in general, the article seems highly cautionate of the arts. The words theater (or theatre) and music don't even appear. The European Renaissance doesn't mention art/music/poetry etc. except to say that culture was the "inquisitiveness which ultimately led to humanism". Of course, I don't expect the arts to be added to every section, but the current situation is beyond barren. – Aza24 (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Phlsph7: I'll work on this today, feel free to jump in as well. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Added music, theatre, and Renaissance art. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

For the Early humans section, I think it'd be worth noting that the human voice was probably used as an instrument long before the findings of physical instruments. That always seems an unspoken misconception to me. Aza24 (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• I'd add "printmaking" to "Some of the major inventions of the period were gunpowder, printing, and the compass, all of which originated in China", and then probably link to Four Great Inventions somehow. – Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Is printmaking one of the Four Great Inventions? The wikipedia page has papermaking instead. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I seem to have misspoke, paper is the one missing (and indeed printing/printmaking is already in the line I quoted!). I see paper is already included in a separate section though, so mention of the Four Great Inventions might be hard to muster (and is probably unimportant)

However, there's another problem here then. Our compass article seems to claim that the item was invented in the BCEs; its inclusion in the "c. 500 – 1500 CE" section seems way off. Aza24 (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Good catch! Fixed. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Wondering if any of the Medieval renaissances should be mentioned? – Aza24 (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that modern historians hate the term renaissance and barely acknowledge that there was an Italian renaissance. As our article says, "The term has always been a subject of debate and criticism, particularly on how widespread such renewal movements were and on the validity of comparing them with the Italian Renaissance." --Cerebellum (talk) 11:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Aza's comments above hit on something I had thought to comment on—many subsections focus primarily, or even solely, on political/military history. It is obviously a difficult balance to include other topics, and I don't know whether it falls under the GA criteria's "broadness" or the FA criteria's "comprehensivity". Still, something to think about. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

For art we are roughly in line with the sources - of 198 chapters in the Cambridge World History, only three by my count are about art. But in general I think it is a valid criticism, some sections are quite weak on cultural/economic history, for example the Southeast Asia section in post-classical history. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree, art should not be neglected but its importance should also not be overstated since it does usually not get that much attention from world historians. Phlsph7 (talk) 13:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Of course, I agree that overstatement is a risk. Still there are significant figures/movements which are very closely associated with different periods of time; those seem like the best (perhaps the only) places to include such information. Some ideas come to mind (all suggestions):

• the Tang dynasty & poetry

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• The Islamic Golden Age (no examples of culture in the text, just science, so perhaps a single line on literature like One Thousand and One Nights and/or Islamic art would help)

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Medieval invention of Neume (the origin of modern music notation) – and/or the birth of polyphony in the Notre-Dame school

  Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 01:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Edo Japan and Ukiyo-e

  Done. --Cerebellum (talk) 01:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

To Airship's point, I think in general, if a subsection only includes political/military history, we should aim to have at least one sentence on something else. Not even necessarily the arts, but something cultural/economic/scientific. Obviously, if historians really aren't talking about anything but politics (perhaps for lack of information), we don't want to invent coverage, but there is certainly a balance at reach here. Aza24 (talk) 18:03, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

It may be best to address this in the discussion of the individual subsections. The main point is probably that each subsection covers what, according to world-historians, are the most important developments in that context. It's a plus if the domains to which these develoments belong are diverse but this is probably a secondary concern. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Good points; I've been providing feedback with an eye on addressing similar gaps in social concepts (moral and phiosophical concepts, like human rights, inequalities, etc.). The problem is, of course, the need to keep the size menagable, and give due weight to stuff. For better or wore, traditional view of human history focuses heavily on politics (of which military history is a part of). Which is why this article only barely mentions stuff related to culture. Which reminds me - we should probably say something in contemporary history about recent decline in religiosity; I think this is missing. A final thought on how to find out what is missing that just occured to me: check which concepts from Wikipedia:Vital_articles#History (VA3?) are not mentioned here (maybe run a wikidata query for this is possible). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I mentioned secularization in relation to the Enlightenment in Europe. The decline in religiosity in contemporary history is probably true for most of the West but not for various other parts of the world. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Is it perhaps worth mentioning that decline in the West, alongside the increase in Muslims? It does seem a little odd to me that the Late modern period doesn't say anything about any religion, but I don't know how much RS are talking about it in that period. Aza24 (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

• The Europe section of Early modern period (c. 1500 – 1800 CE) is an interesting case study of the arts vs politics comments above. The first half neatly and succinctly covers the political/military history. Yet the second half seems to leave out the entire 16th and 17th centuries. This ends up excluding seemingly significant moments like the first viennese school (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven) and the Age of Enlightenment, for example; one might expect to see Newton or Kant (or the larger ideas they represent) included here. Again though, just suggestions. – Aza24 (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aza24: Thank you for the suggestions. Could you help us identify what we can cut to add the topics you mentioned? We are already well over 10,000 words. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Ancient history's Regional empires section seems to ramble a bit; perhaps it could be more succinct.

I wouldn't worry too much about the 10k. Of course, it's an important benchmark to keep in mind, but this is the kind of article where any reviewer/reader would understand if it was 12–13k. The Middle Ages FA is 14k; obviously it'd be ideal to not get to that high, but there is definitely some wiggle room. Aza24 (talk) 18:25, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I found a way to mention Kant. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Again, all of my comments are suggestions, but I'm glad there has been more balancing out. Aza24 (talk) 20:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

"Massive Wikipedia:Systemic bias issues" from User:Bogazicili Discussion moved to [10]

Ottoman genocides and Holocaust is mentioned in the article but the following seems to be missing: Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Africa etc. Here are few that can be mentioned such as California genocide: [11] Other crimes in Africa such as Atrocities in the Congo Free State, Herero and Nama genocide, and Algerian_War#Atrocities_and_war_crimes Circassian genocide Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction with about 5 million dead. And that is just from a very quick glance at the article. Here's a specific example of the biased coverage: What the article says: Several European powers colonized the Americas, largely displacing the native populations and conquering the advanced civilizations of the Aztecs and Inca.[447] Diseases introduced by Europeans devastated American societies, killing 60–90 million people by 1600 and reducing the population by 90–95%.[448] What sources say: The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies p. 304 The conquest of Latin America resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of individuals, primarily as a result of disease and forced relocation into more concentrated settlements, as well as through exterminatory attacks on those who resisted Iberian domination. Severe exploitation aggravated the process through overwork, nutritional deficits, and reduced resistance to illnesses generally. Paralleling this process were concerted efforts to destroy the religious and cultural fabric of native societies through the systematic destruction of sacred objects, the death of indigenous religious leaders, and the prohibition of native rites The Cambridge World History of Genocide Volume 2 p. 6: European colonisation has stretched around the world for more than five centuries, disrupting or destroying millions of Indigenous people’s lives. Yet only in the last few decades have some colonial histories, especially those of settler colonies, begun to be understood as genocidal. This volume reflects that historiographical shift. Sixteen of the following chapters identify and document genocides committed by colonists and their leaders in Ireland, North America, Australia and Africa. However, this volume also includes two cases of mass violence perpetrated by members of Indigenous groups, in North America (Ned Blackhawk’s Chapter 10 on the Iroquois destruction of Wendake) and Africa (Michael Mahoney’s Chapter 14 on the Zulu Kingdom’s genocide of neighbouring groups). In addition, this volume also assesses cases that did not take place in a settler colonial context, such as Dean Pavlakis’ Chapter 24 on the Congo, as well as four cases on the Eurasian continent, in Korea, Central Asia, Russia and France. Bogazicili (talk) 14:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Bogazicili, why are these DUE in an article of this scope, why is the quote you identify "biased coverage", and why is your Cambridge History of Genocide quote relevant? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:42, 7 June 2024 (UTC) AirshipJungleman29 Can you explain me why these sources are due and above (such as Cambridge History of Genocide) are not: "They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else: A History of the Armenian Genocide." "Comprendre le Génocide des Arméniens—1915 à nos Jours [Understanding the Armenian Genocide: 1915 to the Present Day] (in French)"? Bogazicili (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC) As for the quotes specifically, the article omits genocides committed in Americas and just mentions deaths due to disease. Bogazicili (talk) 14:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Bogazicili, sources cannot be DUE, only content. I cannot see where either quote you have provided describes the colonization of the Americas as genocide, so I don't see any problem. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC) AirshipJungleman29, content comes from sources. We also use sources to decide what is DUE. For example, something from a high level summary such as page 6 in Cambridge History of Genocide can be more DUE than something from a more specialized source. Second part of your response is weird. There are MULTIPLE genocides in Americas, and they each have their own chapters. I can't quote the entire book. But I see you seem prone to disregard my comment, so I'll probably move this to talk page and start an RFC Bogazicili (talk) 16:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC) I wish you the best with that. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Thanks, discussion has been moved to the talk page: Talk:Human_history#Coverage_of_genocides_and_atrocities Bogazicili (talk) 05:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Prehistory

• I think the first paragraph in Human_history#Rise_of_agriculture can use a map: [12], moving the Göbekli Tepe image further down? Bogazicili (talk) 06:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • There is already a map in that section; I don't think two are needed. Would a swap really be beneficial? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Ancient history

• In Human_history#Regional_empires, Hittites are missing. You can also mention Hattians. Bogazicili (talk) 06:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • That would seem quite the wrong place for the Hittites, who existed several centuries before the period described in that section. If they are DUE, the following sentences in the "Cradles of civilization" subsection seem the right place for insertion: "Over the following millennia, civilizations developed across the world. By 1600 BCE, Mycenaean Greece began to develop. It flourished until the Late Bronze Age collapse that affected many Mediterranean civilizations between 1300 and 1000 BCE. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Post-classical history

• For the Islamic Golden Age part, I have concerns about the current text: ushering in the Islamic Golden Age, an era of learning, science, and invention during which philosophy, art, and literature flourished.[233][m] The knowledge and skills of ancient Greece and Persia were preserved in the post-classical era by Muslims,[235] who also added new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China[236] and decimal positional numbering from India.[237] To me, this sounds like there were no original inventions, but they just mixed ancient Greece and Persia with other outside inventions. Can original discoveries mentioned such as those in Islamic_Golden_Age#Mathematics, Islamic_Golden_Age#Natural_sciences, or Islamic_Golden_Age#Engineering? Outside influences can also be mentioned, but I don't think the current space is justified, given Greece, Persia, or paper from China etc are also mentioned elsewhere. Bogazicili (talk) 06:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I agree; it is important to remember that the Islamic Golden Age was not just preservation and compilation of ancient and oriental writings (in teleological preparation for the European Renaissance) but a period of superb scientific and cultural advancement. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Late modern period

• For the paragraph starting with These technical innovations had far-reaching effects.[542] The world's population quadrupled... (I'll refer to this as the demography paragraph), can we add Demographic transition? I don't think there is anything at all about this in the article. Many countries today have Sub-replacement fertility. This is noted in The Cambridge World History Vol 7 Part 2 p. 68 The demographic transition, to low birth and child death rates alike, reflected a quiet revolution in key aspects of family life. In The Cambridge World History Vol 7 Part 1, there's an entire part called "Population and Disease" (Part 2) with "Features of the modern demographic transition" starting in page 196. Maybe we can also include discovery of modern Birth control Bogazicili (talk) 05:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• Similar to above, can we mention the increase in human life expectancy? I believe it was lower than 30s for most of human history. Bogazicili (talk) 05:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I quite like these demographics-focused suggestions, and agree with implementing them. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• Israeli–Palestinian conflict is missing, even though Russian invasion of Ukraine is mentioned. The former is much longer in duration, and is a major issue in world politics and West Asia. Bogazicili (talk) 06:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I would suggest not mentioning either—that paragraph is quite lengthy, and WP:RECENTISM bias is a concern to me. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• Last paragraph is a bit too long, consider moving The importance of public education had already begun to increase in the 18th and 19th centuries[x] but it was not until the end of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries that compulsory and free education was provided to most children worldwide.[558][y] into the "the demography paragraph" Bogazicili (talk) 06:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• Can we add something about treatment of children, such as introduction of age of consent laws and child labor laws? (Age_of_consent#Reforms_in_the_19th_and_20th_century and Child_labour_law#History) Bogazicili (talk) 06:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • This seems slightly tangential to me. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• Since I am making several suggestions to expand the article, you might consider removing Meanwhile, industrial pollution and environmental damage accelerated drastically.[488] from Long nineteenth century. Climate change and environmental degradation is already mentioned in Contemporary history (which I believe is the correct place) Bogazicili (talk) 06:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Including both is fine with me for the moment; we can talk about cutting latter if necessary. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Academic research

• "The field of inquiry studying human history is called world history, but the two terms are also sometimes used as synonyms." This is definitely an (understandable) misunderstanding. World history is not the field of human history, but an approach, one which focuses on interactions between different systems and cultures. It's probably outside the scope of this article, but it, like "area studies", "comparative history", "global history" and the like, is even increasingly disdained. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  From Christian 2015a, pp. 1–3: World history must limit its ambitions precisely because its scope is so vast, so an exhaustive history of humanity, like a map the same size as the landscape it charts, would be of little use because it would have avoided the hard work of distillation. This is why world historians have to be good at selecting. The chapters in Volume i are indeed authoritative; they cover a great deal of territory (literally and metaphorically); but they are not exhaustive. Like all the best scholarship in world history, they try to convey both the detailed texture of human history and its major themes and trajectories. ... As Marnie Hughes-Warrington points out in her brief history of world history in Chapter 2, we find many different labels for the same core project. They include ‘universal history’, ‘global history’, ‘transnational history’, ‘macrohistory’, ‘comparative history’, ‘big history’, and more. She also points out that, whatever we call it, the world history project is ancient. All attempts to make sense of the past depend on imagining a coherent and meaningful ‘world’ of some kind, though they vary in the extent to which ‘the purpose of world construction is explicit’. I added qualifier "The main field of inquiry" to not imply that there are no other approaches. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  You will find similar and rather contradictory statements from adherents of many approaches. These are historians trying to tell others that their way of interpreting the world is right. No one really knows what "global", "world", "transnational", etc. history means. See pp. 435 onwards of this essay from Patricia Clavin: it explicitly differentiates "international", "world", "global", and "transnational" history, in complete contrast to Hughes-Warrington above saying that they are "many different labels for the same core project". Clavin says "Global historians are primarily interested to weave the history of humans and the planet on which they live into a single story" and that from the global history perspective, world history has a "narrow geographic and chronological focus"! Meanwhile, you have Sebastian Conrad arguing that global and world history are identical (What is Global History, 2016, chapter 3 especially) but differentiated from comparative and transnational history approaches. These are all highly respected historians, and their views are completely contradictory. On this matter, historians love to argue: I remember one (I believe Sven Beckert noted something along the lines of "more pages have been dedicated to whether transnational history is best than to actual research using the approach". I would certainly recommend against stating in wikivoice that "human history=world history" or similar—especially since many non-Western historians have come to view world/global history as the successor of colonialist analyses (see Conrad's acknowledgement on p.218). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  From the sources that I'm aware of, there is not a generally accepted distinction between "world history" and "global history". For example, from Stearns 2010 pp. 14–15: World history is the more common current label. Global history often means the same thing. For some, however, there is an implication in global history of more intense focus on contacts and interconnections, though as we have seen these emphases must be embraced in world history. For a similar but more lengthy discussion, see [13]. The expression "world history" is often found in the titles in our bibliography section and Ngrams indicates that the expression "world history" is more common than the others though we probably can't read much more out of it. Do you think that the problem could be solved by adding a footnote along the following lines: Some historians use the term "world history" in a more narrow sense to refer to one among several alternative approaches to studying human history. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions for the lead

GPT4o came up with bits that might be useful for the lead:

Extended content

The study of human history is often divided into different periods, including prehistoric times, characterized by the Stone Age, which saw the advent of tool-making and the emergence of Homo sapiens. The Neolithic Revolution marked a significant shift with the beginning of agriculture and sedentary communities, leading to the establishment of complex societies and urbanization. As societies evolved, the Bronze Age and Iron Age introduced new technologies and materials that spurred advancements in agriculture, warfare, and trade. The rise of early civilizations, such as in Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, and China, marked the beginning of recorded history, with writing systems, centralized governments, and monumental architecture. The classical period saw the flourishing of Greek and Roman civilizations, which laid the foundations for Western culture and influenced philosophy, art, science, and politics. The fall of the Roman Empire gave way to the Middle Ages in Europe, marked by feudalism, and significant cultural and economic changes. The Renaissance in the 14th century heralded a resurgence in art, science, and intellectual pursuit, leading to the Age of Discovery and colonialism, which connected distant parts of the world through exploration, trade, and conquest. The Industrial Revolution of the 18th and 19th centuries brought unprecedented technological progress and industrialization, transforming societies and economies on a global scale. The 20th century was marked by rapid advancements in science and technology, as well as significant political and social upheavals, including two world wars, the fall of colonial empires, and the Cold War. The latter part of the century saw the advent of the information age, characterized by widespread use of computers and the internet, which continues to shape contemporary human history. The study of human history is interconnected, with historians and scholars incorporating diverse perspectives to understand the complexities of human experiences across different cultures and eras. Modern human history is marked by ongoing challenges such as climate change and social inequalities, which influence the trajectory of human societies.

It probably needs the Renaissance in the lead? Tom B (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

"The fall of the Roman Empire gave way to the Middle Ages in Europe, a period marked by feudalism, the spread of Christianity" The Western Roman Empire fell, the Eastern Roman Empire survived to the end of the Middle Ages and the early Renaissance. And that Western Empire had been Christianized for more than a century by 480 CE. The "spread of Christianity" and its dangerous side-effects are relevant to Late Antiquity, not the Middle Ages. Dimadick (talk) 23:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

thanks, i've deleted it Tom B (talk) 08:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, I think mentioning the early civilizations is important. I gave it another try while trying to stick more closely to the structure and content of our article. I'm not sure if we want to continue the discussion here or at the GA review, where the lead expansion was requested. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Minor style question

Would it be deleterious to remove the redundant era designations in the year ranges in each heading? Remsense诉 06:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I've pondered that question as well and I haven't really reached a conclusion. Removing them would make the section titles more concise and I don't think they are particularly common in Wikipedia articles. However, they are used in works of world history. For example, they form part of the book titles of each volume of The Cambridge World History and are used in the main chapter titles of Bulliet et al. 2015a. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Are they redundant? The headings use three different eras: years ago, BCE, and CE. What do you propose that Ancient history (c. 3000 BCE – c. 500 CE) would become, for example? – Joe (talk) 08:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Good that you bring up this point, I think I misunderstood the original suggestion. I initially thought that the year ranges themselves should be removed ("Ancient history (c. 3000 BCE – c. 500 CE)" would become "Ancient history") but the comment is about "redundant era designations in the year ranges", presumably:

• Post-classical history (c. 500 CE – c. 1500 CE) -> Post-classical history (c. 500 – c. 1500 CE)
• Early modern period (c. 1500 CE – c. 1800 CE) -> Early modern period (c. 1500 – c. 1800 CE)

Phlsph7 (talk) 09:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah right, no objection to that. You might as well drop the second circa too. – Joe (talk) 12:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Me, I'd drop the era designation for the headers of the 2 "modern" periods, which really aren't needed. In text, they are very rarely needed for dates after say 500 CE. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Coverage of genocides and atrocities

Ottoman genocides and Holocaust is mentioned in the article but the following seems to be missing:

• Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Africa etc. Here are few that can be mentioned such as California genocide: [14]
• Other crimes in Africa such as Atrocities in the Congo Free State, Herero and Nama genocide, and Algerian_War#Atrocities_and_war_crimes
• Circassian genocide
• Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction with about 5 million dead.

And that is just from a very quick glance at the article. Here's a specific example of the biased coverage:

• What the article says:

  Several European powers colonized the Americas, largely displacing the native populations and conquering the advanced civilizations of the Aztecs and Inca.[447] Diseases introduced by Europeans devastated American societies, killing 60–90 million people by 1600 and reducing the population by 90–95%.[448]

• What sources say:
  • The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies p. 304

    The conquest of Latin America resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of individuals, primarily as a result of disease and forced relocation into more concentrated settlements, as well as through exterminatory attacks on those who resisted Iberian domination. Severe exploitation aggravated the process through overwork, nutritional deficits, and reduced resistance to illnesses generally. Paralleling this process were concerted efforts to destroy the religious and cultural fabric of native societies through the systematic destruction of sacred objects, the death of indigenous religious leaders, and the prohibition of native rites

  • The Cambridge World History of Genocide Volume 2 p. 6:

    European colonisation has stretched around the world for more than five centuries, disrupting or destroying millions of Indigenous people’s lives. Yet only in the last few decades have some colonial histories, especially those of settler colonies, begun to be understood as genocidal. This volume reflects that historiographical shift. Sixteen of the following chapters identify and document genocides committed by colonists and their leaders in Ireland, North America, Australia and Africa. However, this volume also includes two cases of mass violence perpetrated by members of Indigenous groups, in North America (Ned Blackhawk’s Chapter 10 on the Iroquois destruction of Wendake) and Africa (Michael Mahoney’s Chapter 14 on the Zulu Kingdom’s genocide of neighbouring groups). In addition, this volume also assesses cases that did not take place in a settler colonial context, such as Dean Pavlakis’ Chapter 24 on the Congo, as well as four cases on the Eurasian continent, in Korea, Central Asia, Russia and France.

I'm also adding a NPOV tag for now. Bogazicili (talk) 16:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Bogazicili, please don't do that. Not everything can be covered in every article. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Ok, I'll wait for few more comments and proceed with a RfC if necessary. Bogazicili (talk) 16:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  RFC's are not for retaliation. If a discussion reaches a standstill over a prolonged period, sure. You sound like you're practically threatening an RFC after less than a few hours of discussion. Aza24 (talk) 18:13, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Not my intent. Bogazicili (talk) 18:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The fact that something occurred in the history of the world is not sufficient reason for including it in this article, see WP:PROPORTION and WP:UNDUE. This article can't discuss every single genocide, similar to how it cannot discuss every single war. Are you aware of sources that establish that the genocides you mentioned really were major events from the perspective of world history in general? The sources you presented so far belong to the more narrow field of genocide studies, not world history in general. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean listing every genocide. But we need a concise single sentence that several genocides occurred in Americas. Or at least point to the debate about it (some authors seem to argue against it). No need to list everything, but omitting to mention the issue entirely is indeed biased. Bogazicili (talk) 17:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Which chapters in the Cambridge World History are important enough to be included in the article, and why? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there really a reason you can articulate why it's "systemic bias"? Is the bias that there aren't enough Americans editing Wikipedia? (If you would argue that that there being too many Americans is actually why it the Great Dying is not mentioned, you're mistaken.) Surely nothing is lost by being a bit more specific and not using terms just because they sound more serious. Remsense诉 17:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

No colonial genocide by Europeans are mentioned. Besides the above quote, here's the one for Long nineteenth century: The 20th century opened with Europe at an apex of wealth and power. Much of the world was under its direct colonial control or its indirect influence through heavily Europeanized nations like the United States and Japan.. Positives are mentioned, negatives are omitted such as Atrocities in the Congo Free State (with up to 13 million dead) Bogazicili (talk) 17:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the things you've mentioned should be in the article, but I just really don't see why it's systemic bias—which is a broader characterization about the recent efforts of specific editors. It seems more helpful just to call it bias which is a more natural to remedy in one specific article and perhaps assumes a bit less about the contributors. Remsense诉 17:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I say Wikipedia:Systemic bias because I assume it's due to the demographics of editors. For example, if we had more editors from Congo, they'd probably be more passionate about inclusion of Atrocities in the Congo Free State. If we had more native American editors, they'd be more passionate about indigenous genocides sentence. It doesn't mean there was any bad faith intent among the primary editors of the page. It's easy to miss issues in a very high level article such as this. Does that make sense? Bogazicili (talk) 17:33, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Classic Wp:recentism - what about the the Mongols, Timur, Assyrian Empire and so on and on. Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Some of those can be added too possibly. But there's a whole paragraph about European colonization here Human_history#Long_nineteenth_century starting with European empires lost territories in Latin America, which won independence by the 1820s through military campaigns, but expanded elsewhere as their industrial economies gave them an advantage over the rest of the world.... So an entire paragraph but any mention of genocides or atrocities committed by Europeans are omitted? I don't think there's an entire paragraph about Mongols. Bogazicili (talk) 18:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

This topic might be best addressed by simply stating that genocides have happened throughout history.... without naming any individual one.... we should simply summarize what the UN says or actually quote it "at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity." Moxy🍁 18:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting idea, but there's no natural place for a general comment like that in such an article. We have no "overview" section (nor should we, that would get messy quick), and including such a sentiment in the lead would not be summing up the article like a lead should. Aza24 (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, removal of anything wasn't my suggestion. Examples can be given in relevant sections, with concise overview sentences. Bogazicili (talk) 18:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Pick by what criteria ? List of genocides Moxy🍁 18:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Bogazicili, this article is intended to be perhaps the most general, concise and summarized article on Wikipedia. You will need to cite and provide examples from books on the topic of Human history. That is, we need to see these things represented in modern reliable secondary sources about human history. Of course the The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies is going to mention these things, but how much are the mentioned in The Cambridge World History series? I'm not saying I disagree with you, in fact it seems like many here sympathize with your concerns (including me), but you're going about this the wrong way (and the systemic bias accusations don't help). As for which genocides, again, that would be decided by coverage in topic-relevant reliable sources. Aza24 (talk) 20:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Aza24, thanks for the source suggestion. I checked The Cambridge World History Volume 7 Part 1. There seems to be good coverage of genocide topic (chapter 16). Here are some quotes and page numbers. I'm keeping the quotes under 200 words:

• About Genocide of Indigenous peoples, page 430:

  That said, and ever since the initial Eastern seaboard settler wars against the Tsenacommacahs and Pequots in the 1620s and early 1630s, systematic genocidal massacre was a core component of native destruction throughout three centuries of largely ‘Anglo’ expansion across continental North America. The culmination of this process from the mid-1860s to mid-1880s ... native Araucanian resistance by the Argentinian and Chilean military in the Southern Cone pampas, primarily in the agribusiness interest. In Australia, too, ‘Anglo’ attrition or outright liquidation of Aborigines from the time of ‘first contact’ in 1788 reached its zenith in Queensland in these same decades, as a dedicated Native Mounted Police strove to cleanse the territory of indigenous tribes in favour of further millions of cattle stock. Undoubtedly, in all these instances, Western racism and contempt for natives as ‘savages’ played a critical role in psychocultural justifications for genocide

• About Circassian genocide, page 430:

  However, the 1864 Russian genocidal eructation of the Circassians from the North Caucasus into Ottoman territory...

• About Atrocities in the Congo Free State, page 429:

  One irony of this situation is that the most egregious case of violent mass death in fin-de-siècle Africa – the drive to extract wild rubber by concession companies in the so-called Congo Free State...

Bogazicili (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems solid enough ground to partially expand content on the genocide of Indigenous peoples by at least sentence or two; I would assume the content needed here would be Oceania-based (which is an exceptionally small section in the Early modern period to begin with). I'm afraid the single sentence on the Circassian might not translate to anything in a limited encyclopedia article.

I think the last quote illustrates a possible lapse in this article. There's nothing said on the actual time during which African countries were colonized, just when they were colonized and when they were decolonized. I'd suggest that at the end of the 2nd paragraph in the "Long nineteenth century", a sentence be included on why the appeal of colonizations to major powers, and then the negative results for the native population, where the Atrocities in the Congo Free State could be used as an example.

That's just my reaction, others are welcome to way in. – Aza24 (talk) 22:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I suggest adding the following two sentences.

• For the Americas: Colonial policies included the deliberate genocide of indigenous peoples. Sourced to Cambridge World History, from the quote Bogazicili provided.
• For Africa: Imperial rule in Africa involved many acts of violence such as the atrocities in the Congo Free State and the Herero and Nama genocide. --Cerebellum (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

For the Americas, the source states seems to restrict its claims to "smaller groups" of native populations in North America while excluding "large native populations" in "tropical Africa, or the Central and Southern Americas" (p. 429). This should probably be reflected in our sentence, maybe as In some cases, colonial policies included the deliberate genocide of indigenous peoples. Some scholar suggest the wider claim that colonialism is "intrinsically genocidal" but I don't think that this is the generally accepted position. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I made that change and added the sentences. Bogazicili, does that resolve your concerns? --Cerebellum (talk) 09:23, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Cerebellum and Phlsph7, thank you for the changes. I have several more concerns:

• I do think Circassian genocide should be mentioned in the article. Genocides against Christian and Jewish populations are already mentioned in this article, but there is nothing about genocides against Muslim populations, such as the Circassian genocide. I think this can be integrated into the following sentence while the tanzimat reforms in the Ottoman Empire did little to slow the Ottoman decline. I'll make a proposal about this after I go through a few more sources myself.
• Genocide in Australia should be added into Long nineteenth century section. There's already a sentence that covers British expansion: The British also colonized Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa with large numbers of British colonists emigrating to these colonies. So you just need to add something like "which led to genocide in Australia" into that sentence. Bogazicili (talk) 19:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

To make space for "which led to genocide in Australia", consider trimming this sentence: European empires lost territories in Latin America, which won independence by the 1820s through military campaigns. You can just say something like "Latin American countries gained independence by the 1820s". Bogazicili (talk) 19:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, I suggest you make those changes unless someone objects. I personally have never heard of the Circassian genocide but it has a similar death toll to the Armenian genocide and both are mentioned in the Cambridge World History, so to be consistent I think we would either have to include both or omit both. --Cerebellum (talk) 19:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Great, I made the changes. The word count increased by only 4, while coverage of Ottoman Empire expanded significantly.

• Added Circassian genocide per above
• Migration into Ottoman Empire is mentioned in The Cambridge World History Vol 7 Part 2 p. 5: Tsarist and Habsburg Empires against the Ottoman Empire sent soldiers moving and Muslim peasant families fleeing. So I believe this is due too.

Combining with additional sources, this is the result: [15]

I really like how you guys link individual pages in the reference btw. I don't think I have seen that before. Bogazicili (talk) 09:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually I was too hasty, looks like the Australian case is more controversial. See Australian history wars#Genocide debate. I'm not sure if we should call it genocide or not. --Cerebellum (talk) 20:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea to focus too much on genocides. It's often uncontroversial that a certain atrocity was committed but the problem of whether some parts of this atrocity amount to genocide is frequently controversial. I would suggest that we limit ourselves to atrocities of world-historic importance. If it's uncontroversial that a major part of one of those atrocities amounts to genocide, we can say so. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:09, 9 June 2024 (UTC)