Talk:Tang dynasty

Wu Zetian interregnum justifying discontinuity in establishment years in infobox / header?

Under what historiography, dynastic classification, or academic authority is this article justifying Wu Zetian's Zhou dynasty be considered a discontinuity in Tang dynasty? The Zhou dynasty (690–705) article itself even states Traditionalist Chinese historiography considers the dynasty as a period of the Tang dynasty. Deviating from that means this article (Tang dynasty) is choosing a different historiographic viewpoint.

I agree with the need of the article Zhou dynasty (690–705) and the fact that it is prominently mentioned in a major section in this article. Unless academic consensus can be identified, I am wondering if this is applying European/Egyptian dynastic conventions to Chinese dynasties. Voidvector (talk) 02:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the sources do tend to treat it as part of the Tang period. Perhaps User:Morrisonjohn022, who made this change a few years ago, whould care to comment. Kanguole 11:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Wu Zhou is typically considered part of the "Tang period" or "Tang era" (唐代) for historiographical purpose. But Wu Zhou is not part of the "Tang dynasty" (唐朝). A distinction needs to be made between historiographical "period"/"era" and "dynasty". In addition, proper sources such as (i) The Sinitic Civilization Book I: A Factual History Through the Lens of Archaeology, Bronzeware, Astronomy, Divination, Calendar and the Annals; (ii) Digitized Statecraft of Four Asian Regionalisms: States' Multilateral Treaty Participation and Citizens' Satisfaction with Quality of Life; (iii) Sui-Tang China and Its Turko-Mongol Neighbors: Culture, Power, and Connections, 580-800, etc. do in fact label the Tang dynasty as "618–690, 705–907". Morrisonjohn022 (talk) 17:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The Zhou Dynasty article says in the lead "Historians generally view the Wu Zhou as an interregnum of the Tang dynasty." That seems to be the same viewpoint as presented by the infobox here (which includes the Zhou Dynasty dates in small type, below).

I don't see how European/Egyptian dynastic conventions are relevant. Furius (talk) 18:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Morrisonjohn022: This article is not about bloodlines, it is about a historical country/regime. The name "dynasty" is simply a proxy for the country/regime. Most books use the historiographical definition -- simply search Google Books for "Tang dynasty", there are two appearances of "618-907" on the first page of the search result (don't even need to click into individual books). It is possible to cherry-pick sources to get results you like, but AFAICT those are unorthodox. The current definition also misses other short-lived rebel dynasties such as that of Yan (An–Shi).

@Furius: I am simply questioning 1) What is this article's definition of "Tang dynasty" or "Chinese dynasty" in general in terms of start/end year? 2) Who's definitions are those or what source did they come from? 3) Are those sources of sufficient authority to overrule Chinese histographical convention? --Voidvector (talk) 09:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Unless anyone objects, I am going to change the current header from "618–690, 705–907 (690–705: Wu Zhou)" to "618–907 (690–705: Wu Zhou)". This is consistent with more common convention I mentioned above, while still mentioning the notable achievement of Wu Zhou. I will also add footnote item indicating it is an interregnum by the Empress. --Voidvector (talk) 04:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The Territorial Map is completely inaccurate

Where is Korean peninsula for the Tang's territorial map? I think it was well documented around 660 AD Tang has full authority control over the entire Korean peninsula yet the map does not show it at all. More importantly, modern Mongolia and the area all the way extending to lake Baikal was also controlled by Tang Dynasty ( 646--696) and who exactly is the editor behind the map page here? So many factual errors within one map, this territorial map should be taken down immediately before giving misinformation to the general public! 165.82.221.183 (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The Tang never had control of the entire Korean peninsula. In 660 Tang (allied with Silla) defeated Baekje in the southwest and established the Ungjin commandery (shown on the map). In 668 Tang and Silla conquered Goguryeo in the north. Goguryeo was in rebellion 670–674. Tang was pushed out of Ungjin by Silla in 670 and out of northern Korea in 676.

The map is based on maps in the cited sources, which do not represent Mongolia as being part of the Tang empire. Kanguole 07:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The source itself never claimed the 661's territory is the Tang's greatest extents. Let me copy what the source said "Whatever the verdict on internal politics during Kao-tsung's reign, this period saw the T'ang rise to a peak of military power and prestige, surpassing even that of T'ai-tsung. For a few brief years the dynasty controlled greater territories ............... " It just said Tang reach its greatest during Gaozong who regined from 628-683 but never said the greatest is 661. I check every paragraph which mentioned 661 and I did not see anything related this conclusion. Actually, many other sources claim that should be 669. - by Lijing1989 in 07:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

你無視了一切你認為對你不利的理據，而且你完全沒有解釋為何你在有確切證據證明唐朝曾統治外蒙古的情況下依然堅持否認唐朝曾統治外蒙古，你只是在重複一些只有你自己才相信的東西而已

。 86A32980X (talk) 05:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

According to the book "Early Tang China and the World, 618–750 CE", section "Expansion in Central Asia and Korea"[1]: "There's also the issue of conflating symbolic expansion via the creation of jimi polities with actual military occupation: It's often though that Taizong "conquered" the entire Mongolian steppe by incorporating it into the jimi system in 647, though this was only a form of suzerainty and not a conquest stricto sensu." Not to mention its existence was quite short-lived, as all such symbolic expansion in the area was expelled when the Second Turkic Khaganate was established in 682. --Wengier (talk) 06:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

他的地圖從來沒有明確指出羈縻地區和軍事管轄區有何區別，而且他同樣把一些唐朝只是短暫控制過的地區（例如波斯總督府）列為唐代領土，我到現在還是不明白為甚麼外蒙古是例外 86A32980X (talk) 06:17, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

There is already consensus among the editors on various issues, and there seems no need to continue the discussion. Wouldn’t you like to check the archive properly? Argument cat (talk) 10:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

It's you who should read properly more, not him. 163.136.36.56 (talk) 08:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm begging you not to unarchive that thread—if we have to continue arguing about the map forever, we should at least start a new thread, because that one is totally unwieldy and impossible to actually read. No more comments should be added to it for purely practical reasons, and archiving it is the only way no more comments will be added to it. Remsense诉 08:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

These discussion logs have not yet been agreed upon, but is it such a hurry to move them out of sight? 163.136.36.57 (talk) 09:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think an agreement will be reached; do you? Unless some fundamentally new evidence upturns everything; one side is familiar with site policy and the other isn't, in my view. The point is that other people can have a hope of reading and understanding what is being argued—the old thread is completely unnavigable already. If I wanted to hide previous discussion, I'm doing a really bad job by putting it in an archive one can search through with one click—which is a habit regular users have. Take me seriously when I give my reasons for things here, please. Remsense诉 09:49, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Judging by the "meta-argument" in Talk:Tang dynasty/Archive 4, it seems like he has already achieved consultation to archive past logs with another user.

Is my perception wrong? Argument cat (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

如果你是在說我的話，很抱歉，我從來沒有同意過任何東西，我以為共識達成的前提是所有參與討論的人都已經基本同意了由某人提出的最少一項主張，原來不是嗎？
有些人在遇到無法回答的問題就只懂迴避不答而已，別跟我說什麼「他很忙沒時間」之類的話，他有那時間去回覆別人，沒時間回覆我是嗎？有些人是不是真覺得我會看不到2則回覆的發布時間就只相差了4天啊？
86A32980X (talk) 06:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

當然如果你說的是"meta-argument"的話，那我沒有任何異議
86A32980X (talk) 06:12, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Are the IPs and the recently banned account all the same person?

User:HabichuelasBeans has been proven to be a sock puppet, given the similarity of the arguments theyre making with User talk:86A32980X and the IP it might be the same person in this case. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 21:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

About past logs

I came to this talk page for the first time in a few years and it seems like all the past logs have been wiped. Perhaps an agreement has been reached and all the questions resolved? Argument cat (talk) 08:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

They haven't been wiped, they've been archived. Every possible argument has been explored and re-explored as regards the content policies on the English Wikipedia. There continues to be a consensus among those familiar with said policies that (1) the current map accurately represents its sources, and (2) it is well-suited for use in the article. Remsense诉 09:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I see, could you please let me just check them? Argument cat (talk) 09:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Links are at the top of the page like where archives can always be found. Remsense诉 09:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

It was helpful. Argument cat (talk) 09:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I took a quick look at it, and as you said, it seems certain that the discussion on those issues has ended. Argument cat (talk) 10:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:MORATORIUM Proposal

I am proposing an indefinite WP:MORATORIUM for discussion related to removing or changing the infobox map in this article. This topic has been discussed to death and has wasted too much valuable editor time... for 17 years! Its featured a host of usual suspects: nationalist SPAs, random IPs, now-banned users and loads of sockpuppets. I would imagine that such a moratorium would require an overwhelming consensus to overturn, and without such, new threads could be immediately closed with an explanation/link to the moratorium.

The map has been discussed since 2007, featured in multiple threads in all four talk page archives (as of writing). It began with innocent/genuine concerns, see Talk:Tang dynasty/Archive 1#The Tang Map & Talk:Tang dynasty/Archive 1#The Map but has quickly spiraled into the same unproductive discussions over and over, almost always 1–2 IPs/sockpuppets/SPAs arguing against a clear consensus. Talk:Tang dynasty/Archive 4 features four threads in less than a year, while this talk page as of writing has two (in addition to a now deleted one begun by a sockpuppet mere hours ago!). This doesn't even include the enormous 2017–2023 thread, that result in (as expected), no changes.

At some point, we need to put our foot down and move on. This is not a major concern for this featured article and there are infinitely more places in which editor time can be better spent. Aza24 (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I second this proposal, the sockpuppetry is absurd and also, if 17 years has been spent on this, it's just better to keep it as it is. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 01:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree. This has been such a problem for far too long. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I think we should start the process then, @Aza24 would you like to submit the proposal? Sunnyediting99 (talk) 20:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Afaik, this kind of this kind of thing is decided on individual talk pages, so I believe my initial comment suffices as a proposal. We would just need to hear more input from the community and then request that the thread be closed.

Hey @Argument cat, Remsense, and Kanguole: you've all been active in these discussions above. Any opinions on having a moratorium for the issue, as described above? – Aza24 (talk) 03:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I wish that we didn't have to consider this, and I'm sure that isn't a feeling unique to me, because I genuinely do think such restrictions are usually destructive at some abstract level. But, I'm not going to object in the slightest, as the status quo has been perennially demonstrated to be worse. Remsense诉 03:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Qing dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

On the issue of Gejis and courtesans or prostitutes in the Tang Dynasty

I need to point out that in China, many people misunderstand the functions of Gejis and prostitutes. Geji is not even equal to "courtesan" in Western society, just as the choice of Japanese geisha is separated from "courtesan". Many Westerners also cannot distinguish the different relationship between the two. The book by Western scholars cannot be used as a reference. He confuses the functions of courtesans or prostitutes in red-light districts with the functions of Jiaofang(教坊) gejis in the Tang Dynasty. I quoted the original documents of the Tang Dynasty, such as "Beili Zhi(北里志)" and "Jiaofang Ji(教坊记)". Comparing the difference between the two, you will know the error of the entry. 清风与明月 (talk) 02:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source: we do not publish our own analyses of primary sources. While I think more than a sentence or two on this subject would be undue for this article, you're welcome to cite Chinese-language secondary sources if you think they're filling in information that Western sources have missed. Remsense诉 02:49, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I have provided the most original documents from the Tang Dynasty in China. Both "Beili Zhi" and "Jiaofang Ji" were written by people from the Tang Dynasty. The different descriptions of these two books fully explain the difference between the two. North Hamlet is a red-light district, a prostitution community in Chang'an City. "Beili Zhi" clearly states that the madams would beat the courtesans or prostitutes. Wiki says that these madams have status, which obviously glorifies the madams and pimps. At the same time, the confusion between female artists and high-class prostitutes, those priority geji are not respected, and the contribution of geji to poetry is given to the women in the red-light district in this wiki. 清风与明月 (talk) 04:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Please reread what I've written above, and consult the guideline I've linked as well. We can't directly interpret sources from the previous millennium for more than the most basic details like dates of birth, and even then we require support from secondary sources.Remsense诉 05:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

But I also added the secondary source, which also explains the artist organization in the Tang Dynasty, written by modern people, why was it deleted? And why were the Chinese dance wiki and the Ming Dynasty wiki also deleted? Keeping the English expression "courtesan" but pointing to "Geji" is also not allowed? Please give an explanation. Why are the ancient references plus the modern references, both of which are deleted? 清风与明月 (talk) 05:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not see how Dillon (1998) supports the claims you're trying to make in the article. It seems you're still trying to synthesize new claims from the sources, but just using a secondary source as a starting point in your interpretation of a primary source. Every claim made must be stated explicitly by the secondary sources—else it is original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Remsense诉 05:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok. But why are the Chinese dance and Ming dynasty wikis also deleted, keeping the English description of courtesan but pointing to Geji, isn't this allowed? 清风与明月 (talk) 05:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

What have Chinese dance or Ming articles got anything to do with what you said about Tang China? Hzh (talk) 07:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Because these were all deleted by the same administrator. 清风与明月 (talk) 07:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll try again, why did you changed the word courtesans in the Chinese dance and Ming articles when it has got nothing to do with Tang dynasty? It looks like OR, and a lot of what you wrote in Gējì also look like OR. Hzh (talk) 07:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

courtesanModified like this.The English expression "courtesan" is retained, but the link points to "Gējì" 清风与明月 (talk) 07:49, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

How do you know that authors like this who wrote about beauties and courtesans - [2] meant "geji" and not courtesans? It looks to be your OR. Hzh (talk) 08:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Because I have a comprehensive understanding of the culture of ancient Chinese gejis, most of the dancing women described by ancient Chinese literati were singing and dancing artists. So in the wiki related to art and culture, I don't want to further confuse them with high-class prostitutes. During the Ming Dynasty, more "courtesans" who had romantic relationships with men were actually singing and dancing girls, highly educated female singing and dancing artists. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Right, so you know better than authors who wrote books on it. A pity that Wiki policies and guidelines won't allow us to accept what a random Wiki editor claim without a good source. That author who wrote the book also mentioned "dancing girls" in a later sentence, which means he knows the difference. It also doesn't make sense to change courtesans to gejis since he wrote was that "famous beauties and courtesans" were no longer praised for their dancing in later dynasties. I would advice you not to do OR, frankly what a lot of what you wrote on the geji article smells a lot like OR, you should revise what you wrote in that article. Hzh (talk) 09:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't say I know more than the author of the book, I just said I didn't stir up trouble for no reason. I don't care if the author of the book knows the difference between the two, I just want to emphasize that the relevant content on the Tang Dynasty and Chang'an wiki pages is wrong. I don't have a personal OR, I have really read a lot of ancient Chinese literature to come to this conclusion. North Hamlet in Chang'an is a prostitution community, not a community for artists and musicians. The women in North Hamlet did not contribute much to Tang Dynasty poetry. The Geji of Jiaofang in the Tang Dynasty made a greater contribution to Tang Dynasty poetry. 清风与明月 (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Still nothing to do with the dance and Ming article. You edits (and your replies here) do not make any sense. Hzh (talk) 12:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I can directly read the documents of Beilizhi and Jiaofangji, which were clearly recorded by people in the Tang Dynasty at that time. It is precisely because Wiki confused the difference between the two in the Tang Dynasty that I would use Jiaofangji and Beilizhi to make corrections. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Irrelevant to your edit on the dance and Ming articles. Hzh (talk) 09:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

But the reality is that in the current wikis of the Tang Dynasty and Chang'an, the two are confused and mischaracterized. North Hamlet is a real prostitution community,they have little influence on art and poetry. They are

have art, but their profession itself is prostitution. The Gejis of the Tang Dynasty Jiaofang were the ones who had a key influence on Tang Dynasty art and poetry. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

There is a big difference between the Geji in the Tang Dynasty Jiaofang and the women in North Hamlet. North Hamlet is a prostitution community, not a community of artists and musicians. In the Tang Dynasty, the main influence on poetry was the Geji, not the women in the red-light district of North Hamlet. Wiki not only confuses the difference and contribution of the two in the Tang Dynasty, but also glorifies prostitution in words. The girls in North Hamlet were beaten by the madams. Wiki says that the madams in the red-light district are rich and have status, which really glorifies the madams and pimps. These differences and situations are mentioned in the Beilizhi and Jiaofangji, and I think the reference value is higher than the personal understanding of the author of this book. At the same time, the Chinese article I submitted can also prove that the contribution of female artists or Gejis to the song, dance and poetry culture in the Tang Dynasty was greater than that of the women in the red-light district. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Why can Japanese geisha use their own traditional terms, but Chinese geji must use "courtesan" and must not use their original names on it? Japanese geisha do not use courtesan because their functions are different from those of "courtesan" in Western culture, and similarly, ancient Chinese geji are also different from the functions of Western "courtesan". The word used in this Chinese paper is "Geji", so why must they be called "singing courtesan" on Wikipedia? The situation is very complicated, because now in English, high-class prostitutes and female singing and dancing artists in ancient China are both called "courtesan", and further distinction is needed to avoid misunderstanding. In a wiki about art, it is geji, not high-class prostitutes, who contributed to ancient Chinese drama.Why was Theatre of China also deleted? 清风与明月 (talk) 05:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I need to understand why, thank you. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Issue with Courtesans, and proposed changes.

At present, the article uses Charles Benn's China's Golden Age: Everyday Life in the Tang Dynasty to source a number of claims. Specifically, where courtesans are concerned. The problem with this is that Charles Benn's China's Golden Age: Everyday Life in the Tang Dynasty has been the subject of one critical academic review [3] which reads For the moment, however, the decision not to include any footnotes indicating sources—unlike for example the earlier work on recreating the Tang of Edward Schafer, or the similar enterprise for the Song of Jacques Gernet—leaves the academic reader somewhat frustrated. A broad erudition seems to be in evidence, but little help is offered in passing it on. The bibliography is confined to reading suggestions in English, and though one would wish to take everything that precedes it on trust, it raises one or two niggling points that suggest that more indications of sources might in future be reassuring. Specifically, I do not recognize the authors Albert Weinstein, Stephen Owens and Patricia Ebery as experts on the Tang, nor do I believe either that Pan Yihong wrote a work entitled Son of Heaven and Heavenly Qachang [sic] or that Luis Gómez entitled a recent work Land and Bliss. That such errors, though minor, should occur in the second edition of a book taken up—even though quite justifiably taken up—for broader distribution by a major press is also somewhat disappointing

I cannot help but question the reliability of the source when it lacks citations and it is noted to contain errors such as the ones expressed above by the reviewer. Moreover, the information which Charles Benn supplies regarding the "North Hamlet" seems to fly in the face of what other researchers have demonstrated. In particular, [4] Visualizing Love and Longing in Song Dynasty Paintings of Women from 2001 states the common courtesans in the capital of Chang'an inhabited their own quarter, known as the Pingkang district (Pingkang fang 平康坊) or the Northern Ward (Beili 北里.

Likewise, Benn at the cited page states that government officials and the like would go to the Northern Hamlet for banquets, however during the Tang Dynasty Guests could visit the City Female Performers at any time. But those officials who had been recorded by the court could not come to Beili. The officials in the court still entertained in Beili when they were on vacation per this book. Which indicates to me that the government officials would not be having official banquets in the Beili. Instead, after the metropolitan government of Chang'an took control over Beili and the city performers, they could be dispatched to perform at banquets by government officials and the like, and they had to pay their false-mothers a thousand copper and had to receive specific permission to leave the district.

Specifically, the above linked book explains also that there was a kind of people called yuehu (the performers) who could only make their living by playing music. During the Tang, the yuehu system became very strict and all yuegong and some yueji had to provide a service for both the palace and the court several months of the year. and Official banquets in capital cities began to hire City Female Performers from Jingzong’s 􁮜􁇇 (809-827, r. 824-827) rule. Before this time, the government of Chang’an hired performers from the Jiaofang. After hiring, the City Female Performers were strictly managed in the capital cities as described in Beili Zhi. It isn't until the late Tang Dynasty that City Female Performers came to be hired for banquets in Chang'an. Xue Tao, for instance, was a guanji, which were differentiated from the City Female Performers Unlike the guanji that could live in the yueying and get financial support from the government, the City Female Performers had to make a living by themselves.

In particular, the Guanji lived in Yueying, and the courtesans that seem to have inspired the literati and who were poets were primarily guanji, not the women who lived in the Northern Hamlet, as evidenced by The yueying was not only a place for performers to live and rehearse, but it was also for officials to have banquets and enjoy themselves. The title of one of Li Shangyin’s poems is “I wrote this poem without a draft and offered it to Hedong Gong when I was sick and heard Hedong Gong held a banquet at the yueying". Officials were allowed to go and seek out the yueying where Guanji (the compartively higher class courtesans) lived and attend banquets there. Liu Caichun is specifically credited as being a Guanji, as well as Xue Tao, Although Liu’s poem was not as good as Xue’s, she was prettier than Xue. Yuan seemed to forget Xue and wrote poems for Liu. and Liu joined the yueying with her family and became part of the guanji. Liu’s daughter was also a guanji.

An important difference is that the City Female Performers also included Siji, The siji were those women whose identities were not yuehu and who supplied musical and sexual services to make a living. So it seems that the women who lived in the Northern Ward were "common" courtesans. I've found another book which states Tang society divided courtesans into four different ranks. 61 At the top was the "palace courtesan” (gongji宮妓), who learned to perform new music in the Music Bureau (Jiaofang 教坊) established by Emperor Xuanzong in 714; infor- mation about these entertainers is recorded in Cui Lingqin's 崔令欽 Records of the Music Bureau (Jiaofang ji教坊記).62 A palace courtesan performed in the Pear Garden Conservatory (Liyuan 梨園) or at official banquets. 63 The second rank belonged to "household courtesans" (jiaji家妓).64 They typically served wealthy men and acted as status symbols. A third group consisted of "government courtesans" (guanji 官妓), assigned to officials posted to rural areas, and "barracks courtesans" (yingji營妓), sent to the frontiers to serve the military. Independent courtesans who lived in urban brothels formed the lowest ranked group; some historians refer to these women as "common courtesans" (minji民 妓), but this appears to be a later coinage. 65 By the ninth century, independent courtesans in Chang'an primarily inhabited the Pingkang district, also known as the Northern Ward (Beili 北里). The best of them possessed talent at music, dance, or poetry. Biographies of these women, such as those included in Sun Qi's 孫榮 Records of the Northern Ward (Beili zhi 北里志), emphasize musical skills or wit over beauty. The classifications of courtesans were not necessarily discrete: for example, independent courtesans could register at the Music Bureau and therefore be on call for government service, 66

I think this demonstrates to a degree the inadequacy of the English translations, for starters. All of these categories are legitimately translated as 'courtesan', and while the Beili did have well-regarded occupants, they were well regarded in terms of their status among the "common" courtesans. In terms of the courtesan social ranking, however, the women who occupied the Beili, even the best among them, were still below the other tiers of courtesans. They were "the-best-of-the-worst", if you will. I think the Benn sources unnecessairly muddles the distinction between the different courtesans and affords greater status to those who resided in the Beili than is appropriate.

In general, I would propose that information about the courtesans in Position of women should be expanded to account for the social hierarchy and for it to be represented that the courtesans of the North Hamlet were considered common rather than high class, as the article presently represents them as high-class courtesans in the North Hamlet, this could be changed to common, or independent, or just "courtesans". Brocade River Poems 23:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I want to acknowledge the care and research here, even as the niche is well outside of my wheelhouse. If my surface level understanding of your concerns are apt, I would be in favor of all material that depends on Benn's work to be reviewed and possibly removed if better sourcing can't be found. Remsense诉 01:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

One note, though: the 2020 monograph by Li Wang you cited was published by Cambridge Scholars Publishing—considered to be a predatory publisher and ergo not generally reliable for use on Wikipedia. Remsense诉 01:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, so it would seem. I hadn't dug into the publisher all that much, though I will state that much of what Li Wang published is supported by other publications as well. Per here [5], books published by CSP are to be treated as WP:SPS. There is consensus that it is should be treated as a self-published source or worse (which by default is generally unreliable, as RSP criteria suggest), but no consensus whether to go lower than the SPS level. Therefore, CSP should generally be treated as self-published. By my count, the "case-by-case" camp had a just a little more numerical support; however, these people presented evidence of several books that received positive scholarly feedback, and this is a persuasive argument that was not effectively rebutted. Therefore, where the policy does not explicitly prohibit usage of questionable sources (see WP:BLP), CSP should not be removed on sight. However, as is the case for all sources in general, all editors who have doubts about a CSP source can obviously put "better source needed" tags

But I agree that it's best to avoid using it if the publisher has a dubious reputation, especially when other quality sources are available that more or less say the same things. [6]This book also contains further mention of the distinction between courtesans, The guanji and the shiji during the Sui and Tang eras would be considered public prostitutes. They worked in the public sphere and encountered more people than the above-discussed private prostitutes. Neverthe- less, the guanji exclusively entertained politicians and scholar-officials from the Chinese bureaucracy. The shiji, however, were those prostitutes who worked in the open market and whose nature would be the closest to the con- temporary interpretation of prostitutes. The development of a commodity economy contributed to the rise of the shiji, as cities such as Chang'an and Yangzhou became commer- cial centers with increased populations and commercial traffic, conditions which nurtured the rise of brothels.

This book also provides replacement for the statement drawn from the Li Wang book for the statement that the women of the Northern Hamlet were only really allowed to leave by special permit, and that officials didn't really have banquets in the Beili Courtesans who served wine were registered with the Office of Musical Instruction. Whenever a court official held a banquet, he would be obliged to apply for a permit from various government ministries and could only then hold it at another location. It was only when newly presented scholars held wine parties that they, at their convenience, could be granted a permit." The courtesans' remuneration could be double the normal rate on such occasions. and While the courtesans of the capital differed greatly in demeanor from those who served drinks in the prefectures and regional capitals, the manner in which they served food and prayed was not entirely different. Courtesans of the Northern District behaved unrestrainedly with both examination can- didates and high-ranking officials alike. It was only when a gentleman had been elevated to the imperial court that they would begin to treat him with the appropriate degree of formality. Since it was difficult for the courtesans of these lanes to leave the pre- cinct, whenever sutras were expounded at the Baotang Temple on South Street-which occurred on the eighth day of every ten-day cycle-they would sally forth to hear the learned speaker. On such occasions they were obliged to pay their adoptive mothers one min before being permitted to go. At other times it was necessary for the outing to be initiated by a third party. (Occasionally a disconsolate scholar might walk with them, but in such

This book contains a footnote that reads Robert des Rotours describes the kinds of women who would commonly form part of the entertainment troupes attached to the households of elite families outside the imperial court, in Courtisanes chinoises à la fin des Tang, 12-14. Such troupes could range in size, from dozens to as many as 100 women. The provincial establishments of military governors (jiedu shi 節都使) and prefects (cishi 刺使) also kept troupes of female performers (known as "official entertainers," guanji官妓), whose quarters were known as the yueying 樂營,“music garrisons." For discussion of these women and their lives, see Rotours and also Gao, Tang dai funü, 64..

In basic what the sources seem to agree on is that the courtesans of the Northern Hamlet, as the article calls it, were something of a mixed bag, but among those courtesans some of them were superior than the others. However, in terms of the social stratification of the courtesans, the independent courtesans who occupied the Northern Hamlet were on the bottom of the social ladder. At the top were the Gongji, who were palace courtesans, below them were jiaji, household courtesans who served a specific wealthy household, the Guanji who served the government in an official capacity, the Yingji who were specifically attached to the military, and then finally the courtesans of districts such as the Northern Hamlet, who were independent courtesans associated who worked in the homes of "mothers" and who were associated with specific pleasure districts such as the Northern Hamlet.

To that end, I think it preferable to refer to them as "courtesans" rather than "high-class courtesans". Even the courtesans who were considered the "best" of the Northern Hamlet couldn't really be called "high-class".

Another source, this one, says The courtesans in Pingkang Ward, at the Qujiang Lake Banquet, and in the Niu household, described above, represent three different types of courtesan: courtesans from a privately operated courtesan house or brothel, imperial courtesans, and household courtesans

Most importantly though, is that source also says The courtesans who mingled with officials at the Qujiang Lake Banquet were most probably provided by the imperial palace. The main duty of palace courtesans was to perform music and dance during imperial banquets, but it was also a common practice for emperors to have sexual relations with them. During the eighth century the number of palace courtesans dramatically increased, especially after the imperial court established the Left and Right Music Schools in the palace in 740 to train courtesans. House courtesanship also became popular during this period, especially after 751, when Emperor Xuánzong (r. 712–55) issued an imperial edict lifting restrictions on the number of house courtesans high-ranking officials were allowed. The edict states: ‘Officials of rank five and above, all generals and local governors are allowed, at their will, to maintain entertainers in their houses, in order to advance their pleasure and joy.’ 8 Household courtesans, very rare before the Tang dynasty, came to symbolize the courtesan culture of the eighth and ninth centuries, and the majority of literary works about courtesans depicted this sort of courtesan

Which clarifies that the majority of literary works that speak about courtesans, aren't talking about the sort of women found in the Pingkang Ward. Brocade River Poems 03:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the compilation. Because the distribution of courtesan in ancient China is quite complicated, there are different names, and some names can be divided into two functions, so it is difficult to have a unified definition. For example, during the Tang and Song dynasties, guanji was divided into two functions. One type of guanji was geji who provided performances for national or official events and celebrations. The other type also engaged in prostitution and provided professional services to officials and rich people. Yingji usually refers to junji, who lived inside the military camp and provided sexual services to soldiers. But some "yingji" is in a broad sense, just that local geji were notified to perform for the army at a specific time, and did not always live in the military camp. The lowest status of courtesan in the Tang Dynasty may be junji and courtesan in Pingkangfang. It is mentioned in the Beili Chronicle that the courtesan in Pingkangfang was beaten by the madam, and their movements were restricted. They could only go out on specific days and had to pay money to the madam. In short, these names are quite complicated, sometimes with multiple meanings, and sometimes with the difference between inclusion and directness, so it is not easy to have a unified definition. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Tang Dynasty courtesan poems are more likely to be about courtesan in social activities, including Jiaofang, palace and local singing and dancing venues, and geji in the family. Those who lived directly inside the military camp and in Pingkangfang courtesans were mentioned much less than the previous ones. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)