Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

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Carousel (Marcia Griffiths album)

Never posted about an actual content/sourcing dispute here before, but this is getting close to edit warring. Please weigh in on this disagreement: In which year did Bunny Wailer write "Electric Boogie"? A newish editor recently changed all mentions of the date from 1976 to 1980, despite a majority of reliable sources pointing to 1976 (Bunny released/copyrighted a version in 1980). So far, User talk:HumbleWise has used original research, personal opinion, and sources that don't actually report what they're being used to report. Thanks for any help. Caro7200 (talk) 12:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an answer for this question. However, I do agree with you. Wikipedia operates under the "verifiability, not truth" principle. We report what reliable sources say, even if it seems they are wrong (like here). What HumbleWise did in this, this, and this edit to me looks like original research. They start using sources in later edits, so that's better. However, I read the part from the source used in this edit and to me it neither supports 1980 (it says he was working on the song in 1979) nor refutes 1976 (he could have started working on it in 1976 and was still working on it by 1979). Then this source contradicts the previous one.

I don't know what sources in general say regarding this, but if there is a disagreement among them, some of options are: list several dates, say "...was written in mid-late 1970s", or remove this phrase entirely. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 19:03, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For those interested--not many, I assume--please weigh in on this ongoing edit war, in the article and on the talk page. I imagine that editors, including myself, are close to receiving blocks. Thank you. Caro7200 (talk) 23:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Track number ranges

Quick question regarding number ranges: if you're noting duties in the personnel section and someone appeared on two tracks adjacent to one another, do you list them individually or connect them with an en dash? For example, if someone played guitar on tracks 4 and 5, do you list them as "4, 5" or "4–5"? I ask because I could have sworn the MOS specified to do it the second way, but now I can't find the guideline.—The Keymaster (talk) 07:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's usually just hyphens when it's cover a range. So, for example, to express tracks 3, 4, 5, and 6, you'd just write 3-6, but if it's just single or paired numbers, you don't use a hyphen. So if it was tracks 1, 2, 9, 10, you'd just write out 1, 2, 9, 10. That's only what I've observed over the years though, I can't cite any MOS for it. Sergecross73 msg me 22:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense to me, but now I'm wondering if in your second example, it should be 1-2, 9-10, since some of those numbers are consecutive? As opposed to a group of tracks in which none of the numbers are consecutive (1,3,5,7 for example). Not suggesting an answer, just adding more questions, sorry! Violetstork (talk) 20:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only if there are three or more consecutives numbers in a row, e.g. "1, 2" and "1–3". The point is that it elides track numbers, and there's nothing to be elided between 1 and 2. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 21:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, thanks! Violetstork (talk) 22:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I really wish I could find the guideline buried somewhere here that suggested you should elide between two adjacent numbers with an en dash. Separating them with commas makes the most sense to me as well, and that was how I used to do it...until I ran across the aforementioned text that suggested you should use an en dash between them, at which point I changed. Now it appears I'll have to go back to the style I was using before, and I'll probably spend hours fixing the ones I did elide, because I'm OCD that way. I have a headache.— The Keymaster (talk) 01:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources for artist credits?

Am I correct in thinking that physical albums are the only source considered reliable for the purposes of ~~crediting artists~~ verifying particular credits on an album (for example, who is listed as a producer vs. a songwriter, etc.)? I understand that there have been many discussions about Discogs, and I'm not trying to challenge that, but does anyone have any alternatives that they use to cite artist credits? I'm kind of baffled that a more reliable database for this hasn't surfaced yet and I'm wondering if I'm missing something. I know some people have used the databases of particular record labels (I think UMG has one?) but I just wanted to poll others and see if they have strategies they could recommend as I work on cleaning up the American women record producers category. Thanks in advance! Violetstork (talk) 20:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A music publication that provides that information would also be reliable. Some reviews will note songwriters, producers, etc. This site ($200 a year for the lowest subscription level) has data direct from dozens of album publishers. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To verify writers, there's also this database from ASCAP. Here's an example search for Phoebe Bridgers. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:07, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OMG, amazing, thank you so much!!! Violetstork (talk) 22:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if this is what you're asking, but I always use liner notes and cite them directly, as per WP:PERSONNEL. If there are additional credits that aren't in the liner notes, or credits that were amended or corrected some time after the initial release, and they are backed up by a reliable source, I'll add those as well, properly cited.— The Keymaster (talk) 01:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's definitely relevant to my question-- when you say you use liner notes, you mean physical ones, right? and if so, do you limit yourself to records you own? or do you find them at record stores or at libraries or? (Just asking out of curiosity) Violetstork (talk) 06:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say the majority of the time I use liner notes from physical media in my own collection. Sometimes I will work from a scanned image of the liner notes, if I can find it online, but you must cite the notes directly using the cite AV media notes template. In the case of Odelay, I had a relative send me images from their copy of the deluxe edition.— The Keymaster (talk) 06:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except for the part where that citation isn't required at all because it is assumed that the liner notes are the source, as MOS:ALBUM makes clear about track listings and personnel sections. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 15:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to bring an article to GA or FA, it will need a citation. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, GA/FA is part of why I often put a citation for the liner notes in the personnel section. I also frequently find that an album's liner notes are incomplete or don't contain credits at all, and WP:PERSONNEL makes it clear that you should explicitly cite anything that's not in the liner notes. I will sometimes also do it if I'm cleaning up a lot of mistakes or omissions in a personnel section (which is a frequent problem, I find) as a sort of signal to future editors that the credits were verified. I've often found that editors will come into a personnel section and make changes that do not accurately reflect the liner notes, and leaving a ref seems to (usually) thwart that. In the case of Odelay, I did it because the deluxe edition credits differ dramatically from the original 1996 liner notes and are much more detailed and extensive.— The Keymaster (talk) 10:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I totally missed that part of the style advice guide. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm mostly asking because I'm working on cleaning up articles in Category:American women record producers and sometimes I see disputes on talk pages about whether an artist is truly a "producer" or not, so I thought it might be helpful to verify credits for that purpose, as well as when credits are mentioned in prose, rather than in a personnel or track listing section, as in the case of this article, which seems to have far fewer citations than perhaps it should (among other issues). So my next question is: does the lack of citation requirement still hold true if I'm talking about prose rather than a personnel or track listing section? Or should prose that lists credits like that be removed, since it usually sounds kind of promotional? I'd appreciate any advice, and thanks for your patience as I'm still learning the ropes. :-) @QuietHere @Voorts Violetstork (talk) 20:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For categorization, per WP:NONDEF, you should be looking for secondary, reliable sources that describe someone as a producer. Liner notes are a primary source. Notwithstanding MOS:ALBUM, I think it's always a good idea to cite the liner notes. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

God, it looks like I have a lot of documentation I've yet to read. Thanks for all the support and guidance-- I really appreciate it! Violetstork (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it took me years to learn the ropes here, and there's always more to learn. Don't be afraid to ask for help. And as for your last question, credits in prose definitely require sourcing, as voorts mentioned. The citation non-requirement QuietHere was referring to only applies to things like track listings and personnel sections, and only when it's a straightforward case. If you're editing an album/song page and including information beyond what the liner notes contain, you need to cite a source.— The Keymaster (talk) 10:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many independent albums have liner notes on Bandcamp. I usually look on discogs. Once, I joined a Discord server for the artist and asked for a picture of the physical. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 16:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source: Far Out

This is a source that I've come across many times while source searching for Wake Me Up When September Ends, and while reviewing the GAN for The United States of America (album) (which uses this source). They don't have an about page or a staff list on the site itself, but they do have a decently detailed editorial policy that basically supplements the about page. And the staff list can be supplemented by the sites LinkedIn page, where the four main editors all appear to have experience in other publications (whether or not those publications are high quality is a different story, though). However, they also appear to accept articles from writers that aren't part of these main four (ex. Tim Coffman is not listed on the LinkedIn page, but he also appears to have experience himself). I'm personally not sure whether or not this site is reliable, I'd like to hear what y'all think. λ NegativeMP1 07:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, the little I've seen from that website in the past almost seems on par with a content farm. They also have a YouTube channel (abandoned for nine months now), and I've found a good deal of their work is clickbaity and dubious. For example, they had a viral article and video where they boldly claimed Steely Dan's "Only a Fool Would Say That" was about John Lennon's "Imagine" without citing a shred of actual evidence to back that up. (I couldn't find one in my own research, and I'd never heard that claim in my decades of being a Beatle fanatic, either.) I'd say their editorial policy reads like word salad, especially considering the questionable content they've produced. Perusing the four-person staff on LinkedIn, Lee Thomas-Mason is the founder and Editor-in-Chief, but all of his experience appears to be in sports journalism and online betting. Looks like Karlien Engelen comes from a similar background. The only one who looks like he has some experience in the actual music industry is Ryan Kitching[1], and apparently all he does for the site is photo editing and design. Long story short, the whole operation rubs me the wrong way. I personally wouldn't use it as a source.— The Keymaster (talk) 08:01, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've stopped reading Far Out articles when they pop up on my newsfeed because it feels like they're always drawn-out clickbait articles. You know, stuff like "You won't believe this crazy reason Dave Grohl started up the Foo Fighters and its 10 paragraphs that amount to "Dave Grohl started the Foo Fighters because his prior band Nirvana broke up." I haven't observed outright falsehoods, but its generally not a good sign when websites have a churnalism problem like this... Sergecross73 msg me 16:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed 100%. And thank you for bringing my attention to the term "churnalism," which I was unfamiliar with.— The Keymaster (talk) 10:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Busted (2002 Busted album)#Requested move 20 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Busted (2002 Busted album)#Requested move 20 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aprilajune (talk) 02:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MusicBrainz it a reliable source?

MusicBrainz it a reliable source? Houtyuhn (talk) 15:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not reliable, because it is written by its users, see the guideline at WP:USERGENERATED. MusicBrainz's homepage says it aims to be "the ultimate source of music information by allowing anyone to contribute and releasing the data under open licenses." GanzKnusper (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So what other websites can replace them and prove the records released by other recording artists and the songs included in the records? Houtyuhn (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since Discogs and MusicBrainz are no longer available, what credible websites can replace them? Houtyuhn (talk) 07:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I asked a similar question a few days ago-- see if this conversation helps. To summarize, most folks were suggesting:

a reliable music publication that includes information about the record and its contents
Jaxsta ($200/year) or ASCAP/BMI
Physical liner notes, either in your possession or a scan/picture of them (cite with cite AV media notes)
If you're listing the information under track listing or personnel sections, a citation may not be needed, unless you want to bring the article up to GA or FA status. See MOS:ALBUM.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but WP:VENDOR also seems to suggest that you could use Spotify/Apple Music metadata to verify such things, although a more academic source would be preferred. ("inline citations may be allowed to e-commerce pages such as that of a book on a bookseller's page or an album on its streaming-music page, in order to verify such things as titles and running times.") You might also check out WP:ALBUM/SOURCE for more info on reliable music sources. Violetstork (talk) 08:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

KKBox, Spotify, ‎Apple Music is this okay? I have some doubts. Houtyuhn (talk) 08:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have doubts, too, so I'd wait for a more experienced editor to weigh in. Violetstork (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although each has its own controversial incidents, at least KKBox only has one infringement incident, but it won’t affect its credibility too much, right? Houtyuhn (talk) 08:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Everything Violetstork outlined is consistent with how I've done it and observed other experienced editors do it. Sergecross73 msg me 10:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doubts as well--they're purely commercial vendors. WP has never handled this well; I've seen longtime editors remove links to Sub Pop and Dischord Records info-filled pages due to "Buy Album" links--even when those are the original issuing labels--but Apple and Spotify (and Amazon) run rampant. And many editors have noted that Apple is often incorrect about original song lengths and release dates for older albums. Caro7200 (talk) 12:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. We've got WP:AFFILIATE discouraging it, but it's not well followed. Sergecross73 msg me 13:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I personally would not use services like Spotify or Apple Music to glean information, as I've certainly seen errors listed on those platforms. Same with YouTube Music, which is possibly the worst of the lot in that regard. The Keymaster (talk) 09:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citations are also necessary if you're listing information that isn't explicitly included in the liner notes. WP:PERSONNEL. The Keymaster (talk) 09:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Afrique Victime

I made a peer review for the GA Afrique Victime, would like more comments to thouroughly improve the article and hopefully make the article a FA, many thanks, 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 05:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Runrig singles proposed merge discussions

There are several proposed merge discussions regarding Runrig singles that may be of interest to this WikiProject:

Draft for upcoming Lady Gaga album

For those who might be interested in helping out:

Draft:Upcoming Lady Gaga album

---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Hull - on the Web

There's been some recent discussion of the above at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz. Curious what other editors think of Hull's lists of grades, such as the one for Miles Davis.[2] I love ratings and grades, have never understood the idea that they trivialize either art or criticism, and, most importantly, notice that RS books still write about them--recent books include Questlove's (The Source), James Kaplan's (DownBeat), and Will Hermes's (Christgau, Rolling Stone). Not sure about grades divorced of prose, though--even Strong, Larkin, AllMusic, have bio/prose entries attached to their ratings. Thoughts? There has been some recent removing/adding back of TH list grades, so best to ask. Or maybe I'm missing where TH wrote about all these albums elsewhere. Part of the issue may be that "subject matter expert" is kind of thrown around too often, but I'd feel the same way if Greil Marcus or Albert Murray's ghost started publishing long lists of grades without any associated text. He also has this on his site:

"In the Introduction to my ratings database, I wrote: I've been accumulating records since the mid-1970s, and have sporadically written about popular music since then. . . . The database evolved from simple lists just to keep track of stuff -- originally records that I had listened to, then it grew to include records that other people think are worth listening to. . . . The grades probably say more about me than about the music."

Thanks. Caro7200 (talk) 00:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]