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Featured articleMinneapolis is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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March 26, 2007Good article nomineeListed
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June 28, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Stalled FAR

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@Magnolia677: Wikipedia needs help on dozens of articles and we seem to be hung up on this one. This article is on a list of stalled FARs. Would you please provide your improvements here to "the third, forth, and fifth paragraph"? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have never purposely edited an article in order to improve its "featured article" status. Not my interest. This article became an interest to me a few years ago when I tried to remove the tremendous amount of puffery and promotional content within it. This was followed by much pushback, although that cruft was eventually removed by consensus. My concern now is multiple paragraphs of history that are completely out-of-scope. In time, I will edit each--and if the past is any predictor--will have have my edits immediately reverted, which will be followed by more protracted dispute resolution. However, because my concerns are valid and based in policy (not ideology), they are taken seriously. This may be another reason FA has been stalled. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Magnolia677: would you please provide your changes? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia677, the effort to finish this FAR has occupied my time along with SandyGeorgia's and Hog Farm's for years. Their time is too valuable to spend on arguments. As other editors have in the preceding RfC, I am trying to accommodate you, and made a working copy for you to edit whenever you decide "the time" comes. It skips all context outside Fort Snelling and Minneapolis, and I'm afraid becomes an incomprehensible mass. Maybe you can fix it. If you can do that, I'd be happy to place it in the article without any "pushback", "immediate" reversion, and "protracted dispute resolution". There is no WP:DEADLINE. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia677,  Done (see next section). Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed first section

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Oncamera and PersusjCP, do you have any comments on this version of the first section? I trimmed out a lot. The exception is I kept in the war in 1862, even though it was in the Minnesota River valley and not in Minneapolis, because otherwise it makes no sense to march a population to Fort Snelling and then banish them. I don't anticipate we'll get anything from Magnolia677 soon (in the above section). Thank you for your time and expertise. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dakota homeland, city founded

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Main articles: Dakota people, Ojibwe, Bdóte, and US–Dakota War of 1862
Line drawing of the location of villages and paths, map shows the Minnesota River (then called St Peter), the Mississippi, Minnehaha Creek, Saint Anthony Falls, and several lakes
Area that became Minneapolis pictured c. 1820–1860

Two Indigenous nations inhabited the area now called Minneapolis.[1] Archaeologists have evidence to say at least since 1000 A.D.,[2] they are the Dakota (one half of the Sioux nation),[3] and, after the 1700s,[4] the Ojibwe (also known as Chippewa, members of the Anishinaabe nations).[5] Dakota people have different stories to explain their creation.[6] One widely accepted story says the Dakota emerged from Bdóte,[6] the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers. Dakota are the only inhabitants of the Minneapolis area who claimed no other land;[7] they have no traditions of having immigrated.[8] In 1680, cleric Louis Hennepin, who was probably the first European to see the Minneapolis waterfall the Dakota people call Owámniyomni, renamed it the Falls of St. Anthony of Padua for his patron saint.[9] In the Dakota language, the city's name is Bde Óta Othúŋwe ('Many Lakes Town').[a]

Purchasing most of modern-day Minneapolis, Zebulon Pike made the 1805 Treaty of St. Peter with the Dakota.[b] Pike bought a 9-square-mile (23 km2) strip of land—coinciding with the sacred place of Dakota origin[6]—on the Mississippi south of Saint Anthony Falls,[15] with the agreement the US would build a military fort and trading post there and the Dakota would retain their land use rights.[16] In 1819, the US Army built Fort Snelling[17] to direct Native American trade away from British-Canadian traders, and to deter warring between the Dakota and Ojibwe in northern Minnesota.[18] The fort attracted traders, settlers, and merchants, spurring growth in the surrounding region. Agents of the St. Peters Indian Agency at the fort enforced the US policy of assimilating Native Americans into mainstream American society, asking them to give up subsistence hunting and cultivate the land.[19] Missionaries encouraged Native Americans to convert from their religion to Christianity.[19]

Under pressure from US officials[20] in a series of treaties, the Dakota ceded their land—which they consider to be living (a relative, and not property)[21]—first to the east and then to the west of the Mississippi, the river that runs through Minneapolis.[22][c] Dakota leaders twice refused to sign the next treaty until they were paid for the previous one.[34]In the space of sixty years, the US had seized all of Dakota land. In the decades following these treaty signings, the federal US government rarely honored their terms.[35] After closing in 1858, the University of Minnesota was revived using land taken from the Dakota people under the Morrill Land-Grant Acts in 1862.[36][d]

Black and white photo of one end of an island covered with hundreds of teepees inside a stockade
Dakota non-combatants living in a concentration camp at Fort Snelling during the winter of 1862

At the beginning of the American Civil War, annuity payments owed in June 1862 to the Dakota by treaty were late, causing acute hunger among the Dakota.[39][e] Facing starvation[41] a faction of the Dakota declared war in August and killed settlers.[42] Serving without any prior military experience, US commander Henry Sibley had raw recruits,[43] among them the only mounted troops were volunteers from Minneapolis and Saint Paul with no military experience.[44] The war went on for six weeks in the Minnesota River valley.[45] Some terrified American settlers traveled 80 miles (130 km) away from the massacre to Minneapolis for safety.[46] After a US kangaroo court,[47] 38 Dakota men died by hanging as ordered by Abraham Lincoln.[45] The army marched 1,700 non-hostile Dakota men, women, children, and elders 150 miles (240 km) to a concentration camp at Fort Snelling.[48] Minneapolitans reportedly threatened more than once to attack the camp.[49] In 1863, the US "abrogated and annulled" all treaties with the Dakota.[50] With Governor Alexander Ramsey calling for their extermination,[51] most Dakota were exiled from Minnesota.[52]

While the Dakota were being expelled, Franklin Steele laid claim to the east bank of Saint Anthony Falls,[53] and John H. Stevens built a home on the west bank.[54] Residents had divergent ideas on names for their community. In 1852, Charles Hoag proposed combining the Dakota word for 'water' (mni[f]) with the Greek word for 'city' (polis), yielding Minneapolis. In 1851 after a meeting of the Minnesota Territorial Legislature, leaders of east bank St. Anthony lost their bid to move the capital from Saint Paul.[59] In a close vote, Saint Paul and Stillwater agreed to divide federal funding:[59] Saint Paul would be the capital, while Stillwater would build the prison. The St. Anthony contingent eventually won the state university.[59] In 1855 with a charter from the legislature, Steele and associates opened the first bridge across the Mississippi; the toll bridge cost pedestrians three cents ($0.98 in 2023).[60] In 1856, the territorial legislature authorized Minneapolis as a town on the Mississippi's west bank.[55] Minneapolis was incorporated as a city in 1867, and in 1872, it merged with St. Anthony.[61]


  1. ^ The University of Minnesota Dakota Dictionary Online requires a Dakota font to read special characters.[10] Here, Dakota to Latin alphabet transliteration is borrowed from Lerner Publishing in Minneapolis.[11]
  2. ^ Because President Thomas Jefferson had not authorized Pike's trip, which was made at the behest of James Wilkinson, the new governor of the Louisiana territory, Pike did not have the authority to make a treaty.[12] Pike valued the land at $200,000 in his journal but omitted the value in Article 2 of the treaty. Pike gave the chiefs 60 US gallons (230 L) of liquor and $200 in gifts at the signing.[13] In 1808, the US Senate authorized one hundredth of Pike's estimate and added acreage,[13] paying $2,000 for the land in 1819.[14]
  3. ^ In the 1851 Treaty of Traverse des Sioux and Treaty of Mendota, the US took all Dakota land west of the Mississippi,[23] about 24 million acres (97,000 km2),[24] in exchange for a 10-mile (16 km) wide reservation on the Minnesota River[25] and about $3 million ($110 million in 2023). Ater expenses, the Dakota were promised fifty years of annuities in goods[26] and interest on $1,360,000 and $1,410,000; the US kept the principal.[27] The Dakota could not read English, and their interpreters worked for the US.[22] In Mendota, negotiator Wakute said he feared signing a treaty because the prior treaty was changed from the one he had signed.[28] Indeed, the US Congress ratified amendments after the fact, and refused to consider payment unless the Dakota agreed to their new terms—in 1852 Congress struck the reservation from the final treaty.[29] Negotiators Luke Lea and Alexander Ramsey had promised the Dakota they would prosper, and rushed the transaction.[30] The chiefs were asked to sign a third paper in 1851—onlookers assumed it was a third copy of the treaty[31]—that Ramsey later declared was a "solemn acknowledgment" of the Dakota's debt to traders.[32] Ramsey, as territorial governor, enforced the trader's paper, distributing the monies to himself, Henry Sibley, and their friends.[33]
  4. ^ The Treaty of 1837 forced Dakota to make the largest land cession—all of their land east of the Mississippi.[37] Then the Dakota ceded more of their land in the Treaty of 1851.[38]
  5. ^ Part of the delay was a month's indecision in the US Treasury about appropriating gold or greenbacks and in Congress, which was preoccupied with Civil War finance. Gold arrived in the region just a few hours after settlers had been killed and war had begun.[40]
  6. ^ In Atwater's history, Baldwin gives the Sioux word as Minne.[55] Riggs gives mini.[56] Williamson who was most familiar with Santee has Mini, and in the Yankton dialect, mni.[57] Here, mni is from the University of Minnesota Dakota Dictionary Online.[58]

References

  1. ^ Lass 2000, p. 40.
  2. ^ Furst, Randy (October 8, 2021). "Which Indigenous tribes first called Minnesota home?". Star Tribune. Archived from the original on November 3, 2023. Retrieved November 3, 2023.
  3. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 365n.
  4. ^ McConvell & RhodesaGüldemann 2020, pp. 560, 564, "Finally in this time frame other groups of Ojibwes began pushing to the west and southwest, at the expense of the Dakota groups".
  5. ^ Treuer 2010, p. 3.
  6. ^ a b c Westerman & White 2012, p. 15.
  7. ^ Weber 2022, p. 6.
  8. ^ Westerman & White 2012, pp. 3–4, "William H. Keating, a geologist who came to the Minnesota area on an exploratory expedition in 1823, observed, 'The Dacotas have no tradition of having ever emigrated, from any other place, to the spot on which they now reside...'.
  9. ^ DeCarlo 2020, p. 15.
  10. ^ "Bdeota O™uåwe". University of Minnesota Dakota Dictionary Online. University of Minnesota. Archived from the original on October 13, 2022. Retrieved October 13, 2022.
  11. ^ Kimmerer & Smith 2022, p. 302.
  12. ^ Weber 2022, p. 14.
  13. ^ a b Westerman & White 2012, p. 141.
  14. ^ Weber 2022, p. 13.
  15. ^ Stipanovich 1982, p. 4.
  16. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 77.
  17. ^ Watson, Catherine (September 16, 2012). "Ft. Snelling: Citadel on a Minnesota bluff". Los Angeles Times. Archived from the original on May 7, 2021. Retrieved December 27, 2019.
  18. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 82.
  19. ^ a b "Historic Fort Snelling: The US Indian Agency (1820–1853)". Minnesota Historical Society. Archived from the original on August 14, 2021. Retrieved December 27, 2019.
  20. ^ Westerman & White 2012, p. 4, "government officials put great pressure on Dakota leaders to be quick about signing a treaty...".
  21. ^ Westerman & White 2012, p. 133.
  22. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference MNtreaties was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  23. ^ Lass 2000, p. 108.
  24. ^ Westerman & White 2012, p. 182.
  25. ^ Folwell 1921, p. 216.
  26. ^ Westerman & White 2012, p. 171.
  27. ^ Anderson 2019, p. 30.
  28. ^ Westerman & White 2012, pp. 5, 188.
  29. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 197.
  30. ^ Wingerd 2010, pp. 189–192.
  31. ^ Westerman & White 2012, p. 180–181.
  32. ^ Westerman & White 2012, p. 191.
  33. ^ Anderson 2019, pp. 32–33. Anderson examined the Dousman Papers to formulate estimates of the funds that were diverted to White officials.
  34. ^ Wingerd 2010, pp. 187, 193.
  35. ^ "Treaties". Minnesota Historical Society. July 31, 2012. Archived from the original on August 15, 2021. Retrieved June 1, 2021. These treaties, which were almost wholly dishonored by the U.S. government...
  36. ^ Vue, Katelyn (July 7, 2020). "Over 150 years ago, tribal land revived the University. Now, American Indian leaders, students and faculty want this history addressed". Minnesota Daily. Archived from the original on November 25, 2023. Retrieved November 25, 2023.
  37. ^ Almeroth-Williams, Tom. "The great university land-grab". University of Cambridge. Retrieved April 11, 2024. The Treaty of 1837 gave 1,062,334 acres, more than any other land cession, to 33 LGUs
  38. ^ Bhattacharya, Ananya (July 10, 2023). "Native Americans are struggling to put a dollar value on how much "land-grab" universities owe them". Quartz. Archived from the original on November 25, 2023. Retrieved November 25, 2023.
  39. ^ Blegen 1975, p. 265–267.
  40. ^ Folwell 1921, pp. 237–238.
  41. ^ Anderson 2019, p. 55: "...they had to beg for food from the settlers or starve".
  42. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 307, The uprising involved at most 1,000 of the Dakota population of more than 7,000.
  43. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 309.
  44. ^ Wingerd 2010, pp. 309, 314.
  45. ^ a b "US-Dakota War of 1862". Minnesota Historical Society. Archived from the original on September 30, 2023. Retrieved November 6, 2023.
  46. ^ Leonard 1915, search for "refugees".
  47. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 313, "what could only be termed a kangaroo court...".
  48. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 319.
  49. ^ Wingerd 2010, p. 320.
  50. ^ Vogel 2013, p. 540.
  51. ^ Anderson 2019, p. 188.
  52. ^ "Forced Marches & Imprisonment". Minnesota Historical Society. August 23, 2012. Archived from the original on May 8, 2021. Retrieved March 2, 2023.
  53. ^ "Wheat Farms, Flour Mills, and Railroads: A Web of Interdependence". US National Park Service. Archived from the original on March 2, 2023. Retrieved March 2, 2023.
  54. ^ "John H. Stevens House Museum". US National Park Service. Archived from the original on August 15, 2021. Retrieved December 31, 2019.
  55. ^ a b Baldwin 1893a, p. 39.
  56. ^ Riggs 1992, p. 314.
  57. ^ Williamson 1992, p. 257.
  58. ^ "mni". University of Minnesota Dakota Dictionary Online. University of Minnesota. Archived from the original on October 13, 2022. Retrieved October 13, 2022.
  59. ^ a b c Christianson, Theodore (1935). Minnesota: The Land of Sky-tinted Waters: A History of the State And Its People. Chicago: American Historical Society. Courtesy Star Tribune and the Minnesota Legislative Reference Library, in McKinney, Matt (August 19, 2022). "How did Stillwater become home to Minnesota's first prison?". Star Tribune. Archived from the original on August 19, 2022. Retrieved August 19, 2022.
  60. ^ Reicher, Matt (May 6, 2014). "Father Louis Hennepin Bridge was first to span Mississippi". MinnPost. Archived from the original on May 11, 2023. Retrieved May 11, 2023.
  61. ^ "A History of Minneapolis: Governance and Infrastructure". Hennepin County Library. Archived from the original on April 22, 2012. Retrieved March 12, 2023.

-SusanLesch (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the edits. I think you can add a sentence about Gideon Pond, or the missionary Pond Brothers, helping Dakota leader Cloud Man to establish his Euro-style agricultural village Heyatae Othunwe info here next to Bde Maka Ska as a specific example after these paragraphs: "Agents of the St. Peters Indian Agency at the fort enforced the US policy of assimilating Native Americans into mainstream American society, asking them to give up subsistence hunting and cultivate the land.[19] Missionaries encouraged Native Americans to convert from their religion to Christianity.[19]"  oncamera  (talk page) 19:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What a relief, thank you! Do you prefer the Pond brothers be mentioned in the first section, or are they all right where they are now, in Education? I was reading about the school at Lake Harriet yesterday. After the 1837 treaty, the school only got five to eight students because so many Mdewakanton were upset that the US sent their money to the missionaries. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about I expand the education section with this? After the Treaty of 1837, the US gave Mdewakanton monies to missionaries earmarked for education, and, in protest, fewer than ten Dakota students attended. Only problem there is that Wikipedia seems to almost ignore the Dakota, don't you think? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the treaty. I believe Wikipedia skipped it. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Swapped the proposed cuts in to History, and cited a new sentence in Education (where there was more room). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few points after a cursory glance:

  • Fort Snelling isn't technically in Minneapolis, just as the Statue of Liberty isn't technically in Brooklyn.
  • In an already bloated section, why is it necessary to include that the Dakota consider the land to be "living"? I mean, really, isn't that one of those "factoids" that would best be included on the Dakota article, rather than in an article about a US city?
  • At two places in the article it describes Fort Snelling as a "concentration camp". The source cited is page 319 of North Country, The Making of Minnesota, by Mary Lethert Wingerd. However, the only place "concentration camp" is used in that source is on page 337, when describing Crow Creek Indian Reservation, over 300 miles away. This will need to be fixed. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The site of Minneapolis was originally part of the Fort Snelling military reservation. John H. Stevens was the first civilian given permission by the Fort to build a house on the site that would become Minneapolis. It's not comparable to the Statue of Liberty.  oncamera  (talk page) 20:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So all this Indian history occurred at Fort Snelling, prior to the establishment of Minneapolis in 1867. Then why is it necessary to include five whopping paragraphs about something that happened prior to the establishment of the city, and which is covered by another article about the place that existed here before? In other words, if A lasted from 1700 to 1900, and B lasted from 1901 to 2024, you wouldn't add five paragraphs about A, to B's article. All these details about stuff that happened at Fort Snelling--prior to the establishment of Minneapolis--should be cut, and readers directed to the appropriate article. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't exaggerate. I cut more than a kilobyte out of the first section. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the Minnesota historical society calls it a concentration camp in their website about the Dakota war of 1862: "The concentration camp at Fort Snelling was not a death camp, and Dakota people were not systematically exterminated there. The camp was, however, a part of the genocidal policies pursued against Indigenous people throughout the US. Colonists and soldiers hunted down and killed Dakota people, abused them physically and mentally, imprisoned them, and subjected them to a campaign calculated to make them stop being Dakota." The image used on Wikipedia of the concentration camp is captioned as such on that article as well.  oncamera  (talk page) 22:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So add this WP:CFORK to the Fort Snelling article, not here. Minneapolis wasn't established until five years after this all happened. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even WP:USCITIES advises common sense when it comes to sports: It is common practice for sports sections to include discussions of teams that are within the metro area, even if the team's home venue is outside the city limits. The city was built where it is because of the falls and the fort. To paraphrase Johnnie Cochran, "If you omit the fort, you must omit the city." -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

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Oncamera, would you mind checking for instances of "tribe" in the article? There are two, both written before you told us about WP:Indigenous. The second one about the pharmacy and "federally recognized tribes" might be OK, but I'm not sure about the US government term. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The one with "Dakota tribes" can be changed to "Dakota bands" if you want to update it. The other is fine as it's the government term.  oncamera  (talk page) 19:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Oncamera, regarding the Social tensions section. Is "native" in the phrase "taught native traditions to children" correct terminology? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to "taught Native American traditions to children" so that it's clearer on the meaning.  oncamera  (talk page) 23:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. The Dakota people are now in two paragraphs of History. I only trimmed about two sentences. I looked around and can't find another city in Wikipedia that acknowledges its Indigenous past for more than about three sentences. A sorry state of affairs. If you can figure out a better plan for Minneapolis would you implement it? For an easy example, if a paragraph break makes a difference, it should go in. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the work you've done to the page, it looks good to me.  oncamera  (talk page) 23:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Oncamera. Our FAR reviewer has other ideas about writing (I for one think that topic sentences and transitions can be very important, especially to unify facts like the History section). I think the topic of the second paragraph, In the space of sixty years, the US seized all of Dakota land. should be more prominent. Do you think that sentence could move, either to the end of the first para, or to the beginning of the second? I'll look for a good citation. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's sourced now. I'll ask where the reviewer would like it. Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to Canopy

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Malvoliox, thank you for introducing and sourcing BCR. Why did you choose to erase Wikipedia's article about Canopy, a highly successful Black-owned business, and put BCR, the generic name of a bureaucratic program (that Canopy operates!), in its place? Do you have an affiliation to one of these organizations or some other in Minneapolis? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There had been a tag on the Canopy page about notability criteria, and I looked into that a little bit more. All of the articles that had been sourced to write the original page were in reference to the program in collaboration with the City of Minneapolis' behavioral crisis program. When I did a compulsory search for neutral, secondary sources on Canopy, I saw a few pieces about their running this program with Minneapolis, but beyond business directories and their own website, nothing about the organization at large. (their website, one profile, directory listing). I understand from their website that they have an intention to form additional partnerships in providing services like this, but until there is more secondary reporting on the organization outside of this program, it seems that the notability criteria better apply to the program than the organization.
BCR, on the other hand, has been the primary subject of regular reporting, highlighted by national organizations, and significantly mentioned as an asset in the investigation of MPD.
Where similar programs exist outside of Minneapolis, there can be pages for the program but not often the organization. CAHOOTS (crisis response) in Oregon has a wiki, but the organization providing it through a contract with White Bird Clinic, which is a community-based mental health organization founded in 1969 that provides similar services across several different city and county contracts, does not. There are 5 organizations and 3 hospitals in Category:Mental health organizations in Minnesota, and the others have a very large scope, providing services across the nation/internationally (see Assistance in Recovery, Hazelden Foundation) or at least having a large number of facilities (see Meridian Behavioral Health).
I could envision both pages existing, at least if Canopy starts partnering with more other folks. At the moment, it seems more in line with the established standards to me that their story can be further expanded as a subsection. If we're sure it meets notability, a revert may make sense. I was looking at the criteria for moving pages and felt that it fell under a small enough category to go ahead with the move, but I am learning and realize I probably should've waited to have more of a conversation first. Malvoliox (talk) 14:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Our reading differs. Two of three sources you cited for BCR also discuss Canopy.[1], [2]. While I'd be happier if Canopy retained their page and BCR was added, what you've done is fine with me. So I agree that both pages can exist. We could say, for example that Canopy responders are unarmed, majority Black-owned, and offer culturally-responsive free service. I made a couple edits here. Can you approve of what this article says now? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like that -- the emphasis on the services being free of charge & there being 4 responses are nice. Malvoliox (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good. Thank you again for bringing in BCR. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to neighborhood association mergers

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@Malvoliox: Without tax increment financing, neighborhood orgs are in trouble. This not a "super specific" handful of problem northeast neighborhoods as you wrote in your edit summary. Southwest Voices quotes the former leader of Kingfield (a southwest neighborhood): half the city’s neighborhood organizations shuttering or consolidating within three years. I'd like to see you use that article from SWVoices and develop a sentence as good as the one you removed. Can you please work on that? I agree that Susan Du's article was only reporting narrow events and agree it should be dropped. SWVoices was cleared at WP:RSN only for subject matter expertise. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point -- I'll look at sentence with a larger scope and put a draft in. Is [3] the article you're talking about? Malvoliox (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful! Yes, sorry, this article at SWVoices. (Notice that we don't need a delimiter inside an HTML link between URL and title.) Thanks a bunch. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Malvoliox: The phrase "an equity-focused lens" sounds like Minneapolis talking, good job. I think you can add in the possibility of mergers somewhere around "struggled with operations". (I guess Wikipedia calls HTML links "external links", my bad.) -SusanLesch (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Malvoliox? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added a phrase about "struggled with operations or merged with other organizations - Malvoliox (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, makes sense now. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for revisions on demographics or government

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Good morning @susanlesch, I have some bandwidth this next month and am wondering if you have anything you want added or improved to the demographics or government sections of the article. Much thanks. Svenskbygderna (talk) 14:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Svenskbygderna. Nice to hear from you, and lucky us to have some of your time.
  • First in Climate, we need sources for Minneapolis has cold, snowy winters and hot, humid summers, as is typical in a continental climate. The difference between average temperatures in the coldest winter month and the warmest summer month is 58.1 °F (32.3 °C). I asked the weather WikiProject but didn't hear back.
I commented this out until there are sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second, we have a FAR review underway by Z1720. She appears to want to give this article a clearcut. You and I have gone back and forth before about what is essential in Demographics, so I am certain you can help. If you're feeling brave, please make any cuts you wish. (I can't promise not to revert, especially if it looks like we lost information that explains a people's situation.) Same for Government. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Susan (by the way, I recently changed my username from Svenskygderna -> Petermgrund to reflect my actual identity, so do not be alarmed). I will perhaps made a sandbox page with some suggested cuts to the demographics and government sections. I will look for some sources re: climate and let you know. Petermgrund (talk) 17:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Peter, thanks, it's always alarming to see a real user name on Wikipedia (only kidding). The entire Structural racism section will move from History to Demographics. Waiting briefly for Z1720's OK, but we can proceed boldly. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, we're ready. Z1720 likes the plan. Cutting words (moving to other sections or other articles) is our goal. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Petermgrund? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Petermgrund have we lost you? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Susan,
Again, apologies. I seem to have turned off notifications for talk pages. I am going to finish work on the ethnic and racial demographics table and then begin making some cuts and adjustments to the demographics and government sections. Petermgrund (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the updated table. I moved Native down one position. My questions.

  • Regarding your edit summary ("poorly sourced older statistics with more recent, better sourced values"), why would US Census figures ever be poorly sourced? Why would they ever change?
  • Why do some values differ from Minneapolis to Demographics of Minneapolis?

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notes on changes

[edit]

Per Z1720, a list of changes for our records. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Restored William Hood Dunwoody, Washburn-Crosby silent partner, who cultivated foreign markets for flour Later, cut again.
  • Removed citation to company website after Perry Ellis was edited out of Munsingwear discussion
  • Removed citation to Cummins company website after Cummins was edited out of Onan discussion. Then deleted Onan, the weakest in group of businesses.
  • Removed extra dates throughout History. (But I added two by request from Z1720 to Water power, lumber, and flour milling, for founding years of Washburn-Crosby and General Mills. They don't fit the new pattern.) Solved by moving a year to a footnote.
  • Structural racism section moved away from History to new section in Demographics. Racial covenants then moved from Social tensions to the Structural racism section.
  • Restored two topic sentences.
  • Restored a sentence to History, "Minneapolitans reportedly threatened more than once to attack the camp." Highest quality source. Reinforces the proximity of the fort and the city.

SusanLesch (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 June 2024

[edit]

In the first section when mentioning 'Ojibwe (also known as Chippewa, members of the Anishinaabe nations)' can we add a link to the Anishinaabe main article? 67.220.22.43 (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Wracking talk! 16:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Number of golf courses is wrong.

[edit]

The article states:

"Six golf courses are located within the Minneapolis city limits."

If you look at any map showing city limits, that is clearly wrong. There are three golf courses within Minneapolis city limits:

  • Minikahda (private)
  • Columbia (municipal)
  • Hiawatha (municipal)

There are three other municipal courses owned and operated by Minneapolis Park & Rec, but they are all located entirely outside the Minneapolis city limits:

  • Meadowbrook (located in Hopkins and St. Louis Park)
  • Francis A. Gross (located in the Village of Saint Anthony)
  • Theodore Wirth (located in Golden Valley)

Minneapolis Park & Rec also operates the Fort Snelling Golf course located in the unorganized territory of Fort Snelling. Gredw (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the correction, Gredw. If you happen to have a better reliable source, we should swap it in. What we have now is an archive from Golf Link. I will go through their list and pull out the ones that are inside city limits. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Google says Francis A. Gross Golf Club is in the city. The park board says so, too. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More wrinkles. Golf Link doesn't recognize Hiawatha. And the park board doesn't recognize Minikahda. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not ideal, but I went with four and used a footnote to cite them. More corrections are welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:42, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the footnote and tried to blend this sentence into the paragraph. I can understand someone wondering why we say four instead of three, but Wikipedia has to go by sources. If you have a source saying Francis Gross is in a suburb, please provide it. Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
> Golf Link doesn't recognize Hiawatha.
Golf Link is not a reliable source. I would recommend ignoring it completely.
> And the park board doesn't recognize Minikahda.
Minikahda is a private course. It is not associated with the Minneapolis park board, and it's not up to the park board to "recognize" Minikahda.
> If you have a source saying Francis Gross is in a suburb, please provide it.
https://www.minneapolisparks.org/golf/courses/francis-a-gross_golf_club/
Click on the "Course Profile" tab:
Size: 149.82 acres
Neighborhood: Outside Minneapolis City Limits
Gredw (talk) 14:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't see where the park board says Gross is in the city limits. Yes, Gross is owned and operated by Minneapolis Park and Rec, but it is not located within the city of Minneapolis.
Google maps clearly shows that Gross is outside the city limits:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minneapolis,+MN/@45.0058341,-93.2192504,14.42z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x52b333909377bbbd:0x939fc9842f7aee07!8m2!3d44.977753!4d-93.2650108!16zL20vMGZwendm?entry=ttu
The city limits run through the cemeteries west of the course. Gross is East of Minneapolis.
Gross is in the Village of Saint anthony:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/St+Anthony,+MN/@45.0279294,-93.2379379,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x52b32c27cc7d1821:0x789e0c13db32b9b2!8m2!3d45.0205565!4d-93.2179335!16zL20vMDEzdG5w?entry=ttu
Gredw (talk) 14:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Solved, you are right. The park board gives the address for Francis Gross as in "Minneapolis" but then says "Neighborhood: Outside Minneapolis City Limits". What source is acceptable for Minikahda? (So far I changed the municipal courses to two.) Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 14:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is Google Maps acceptable?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minneapolis,+MN/@44.9400548,-93.325111,15.03z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x52b333909377bbbd:0x939fc9842f7aee07!8m2!3d44.977753!4d-93.2650108!16zL20vMGZwendm?entry=ttu
Gredw (talk) 15:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly but we can use it for this purpose. WP:RSP says Google Maps "is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context." I left Golf Link in for now. Thank you again for the correction from "six" which was clearly wrong. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Found a better ref, the PGA of America. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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