Talk:List of countries by system of government

Chad

Chad's just had an election, should it be returned to its de jure Semi-Presidential status or should we wait for the upcoming parliamentary election to go through and the National Transitional Council gets replaced by the National Assembly? GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 10:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Nation v State v Country

I am going to change the terminology used in this article. Nation/s will be changed to country. CicolasMoon (talk) 21:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Is the supreme leader of Iran democratically elected?

If not it probably can't be called a presidential system. 2A02:A44A:5C96:1:40B:2426:37FF:8A5C (talk) 01:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

From this article's lead: "This list does not measure degree of democracy, political corruption, or state capacity of governments." Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 04:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

That's not really an answer to the question though, it seems to confuse the office of president with the office of leadership. I see the claim that 'de jure, Iran is a presidential system' repeated several times in several discussions about this, but that does not follow from the Iranian constitution, which states (article 113):

"After the office of Leadership, the President is the highest official in the country. His is the responsibility for implementing the Constitution and acting as the head of the executive, except in matters directly concerned with (the office of) the Leadership."

The question that follows is, what does 'matters directly concerned with (the office of) the Leadership' mean? That's defined in article 110, which gives the leader de jure executive power, which the leader also exercises de facto.

So, following the letter of the Iranian constitution, Iran does not have a popularly elected independently acting head of government. 2A02:A44A:5C96:1:959F:27F7:5B53:86E1 (talk) 09:31, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This article says, "In presidential systems a president is the head of government,". So, getting away from the "popularly elected" distinction there, the question seems to be, "Is the Iranian president the head of governeent?" The Head of government article says, "In the executive branch, the head of government is the highest or the second-highest official of a sovereign state, a federated state, or a self-governing colony, autonomous region, or other government who often presides over a cabinet, a group of ministers or secretaries who lead executive departments." The Head of government article also says, "Not to be confused with Head of state." and the Head of state article says, "[I]n presidential systems, the head of state is also the head of government.", though it then goes on about specifics re Communist governments and the communist parties there. it seems that lack of clarity about this extends outside of this article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:09, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I have both added that lead and removed it because we clearly classify constitutionally democratic and constitutionally undemocratic systems, even if not explicitly stating so.

While IP user question is relevant, Iran isn't fully governed by presidential system. Guardian Council that is mainly appointed by Supreme Leader (himself indirectly elected but serving life term) can veto legislation. I have moved Iran under "theocratic republic", which was previously suggested. -- Svito3 (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

U.S. President is both Head of State and Head of Government

. . . so, I am confused by the description given in the section, "Presidential Republics Without a Prime Minister," as merely representing the President as Head of Government.  In the U.S.A., that is simply not the case.  It would seem this section needs to make further specification and distinction.Mwidunn (talk) 02:18, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
(UTC)

From Federal government of the United States § Executive powers and duties:

The president is both the head of state (performing ceremonial functions) and the head of government (the chief executive).¹⁶

Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Simple map vs detailed map

I don't think parliamentary republic with an executive president should get its own color on the map. It's not especially important detail for purposes of quick overview of systems of government. Similarly we don't distinguish between different semi-presidential systems where functional difference is much more substantial to the system of government than whoever does rituals like state visit. If we can eliminate complexity of the map we should do so, not making it more complicated. I concur there is similarly not big difference between constitutional monarchy and parliamentary republic, but at least one is that and other is other. Svito3 (talk) 22:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

GlowstoneUnknown You have ignored this discussion before making your edit. -- Svito3 (talk) 12:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Poland semi-presidential in secondary sources

Poland in secondary sources (preferred by Wikipedia) is semi-presidential republic. Primary sources on which current classification in "parliamentary republic" relies like constitution text itself should be avoided (WP:PRIMARY). -- Svito3 (talk) 23:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm... I think you mischaracterize WP:PRIMARY. It does not say that primary sources should be avoided, it says that care must be exercised in using them. In particular, it says that they may be used, "only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." If Poland's constitution says that its form of government is parliamentary republic, this article should include that info (and, IMO, WP:DUE requires that it do so if other significant reliable sources disagree).

However, though footnote g in the article says, "The Republic of Poland has been defined de jure by its Constitution as a parliamentary republic." and cites the constitution and several other sources in support, I find no support for that in the constitution {[1]} or in some of the other cited sources I checked (I did not check them all). Characterizing Poland's government into one of the categories used in this article requires interpretation, and interpretation needs to rely on reliable secondary sources. In fact, at least one of the sources currently cited (see here) says, "... By this standard he recognizes Duverger's pléiade as semi-presidential regimes, as well as Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and Lithuania (1993: 87)." It looks to me as if the info re Poland in the article needs to be reviewed. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Introduced here: Special:Diff/1048979774. -- Svito3 (talk) 02:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Secondary sources would definitely be regard as better in a case of this nature..... primary sources from Russia calling it a democracy would simply be rejected by our community. Moxy🍁 03:07, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I am a member of the community, and I would call such a rejection WP:OR and not WP:NPOV. Such a thing could happen, of course, by editorial WP:CONSENSUS following the outside-of-policy but widely-accepted standard WP:IAR; Wikipedia has no firm rules. My understanding is that the proper action in such a case would be to follow the WP:DUE part of the NPOV policy. Do you take issue with my suggestion that, in the case under discussion here, that the info re Poland in the article needs to be reviewed? If not, can we leave this at that? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 06:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

GlowstoneUnknown You have ignored this discussion before making your edit. -- Svito3 (talk) 12:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't aware this discussion existed, however, there is no consensus in this discussion for any changes to be made, I was merely reverting it to its previous state. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 12:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

So you deliberately ignoring discussions and simply like to vandalize related pages ignoring and not participating in any related discussions. -- Svito3 (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

That's a blatant mischaracterisation, it's not vandalism to undo a change made without consensus. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 12:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe if you read edit summaries you would see I refer to previous discussions when doing so. -- Svito3 (talk) 12:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

As for ignoring consensus you can't bring it up because you don't even care to participate in discussions at all. -- Svito3 (talk) 12:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I read it, just missed the bit at the end mentioning "see talk". Regardless, there is no consensus here, it's been not even 2 days. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 12:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

"I ignore you and your edits completely and do not care", basically. Good luck with that attitude. I'm out. Svito3 (talk) 12:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

You made establishing consensus significantly harder by simply reverting and not participating in the discussion. If you disagree with my opinion and others here why are you even reverting with completely different reasoning?

If you can provide edit summary you should be able to argue for it here. Instead you chose to make edit and proceed to ignore this discussion.

If you want to make procedural revert make procedural revert, not opinionated revert and then ignore. Otherwise I think it's totally fine to revert your revert because of incorrect reasoning. -- Svito3 (talk) 16:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

For illustration it goes like this: I ask opinion in talk because I notice problem with Poland's characterisation contradicted by sources, some people respond agreeing that there no such thing in sources and other sources contratict Poland being parliamentary republic. I do all the work finding all previous discussion on the matter, where edit comes from and where else it might have been discussed, read all the sources, and make conclusive edit based on information I gathered. Then comes you who admits having not seen the talk page, also ignores information in edit summary of my edit and dismissing it as "wrong edit" altogether by reverting it. Then you admit it on talk page you didn't actually follow any discussion, nor read edit summaries.

Then you also think your edit should stay because I didn't wait 2 days and didn't establish consensus (whatever that may mean, I personally see this as insulting work me and other editors have done here), while you again neither provide any disagreement with arguments presented here on the page, nor present argument from your revert itself.

What should I do here? I only can give up and cease editing wikipedia whatsoever. Because there no remedy for people who don't read discussion and edit summaries and don't provide their blocking opinion when asked to, yet demand consensus. I prefer you would be rude and call me an idiot asshole instead of hiding behind administration rules and claiming it's I who makes everything worse. -- Svito3 (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)