Talk:Double stop

Doublestop

I redirected to this from from doublestop which was mainly concerned with doublestopping a guitar. Do we need to add guitar as an example of a stringed instrument that is double stopped since all the other listed instruments are bowed instruments? RJFJR 23:44, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard the terminology applied to a guitar. I'm skeptical that it's a standard usage.--76.81.164.27 00:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I've played guitar for 20 years. It's definitely part of the terminology. Just do a Google search. There are plenty of references, including this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.129.7 (talk) 06:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not. TheScotch (talk) 13:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Origin

It would be nice if this article could explain the origin of the term.--76.81.164.27 00:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The term seems self-evident to me. TheScotch (talk) 13:36, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

String instruments

All these terms (double stop, triple stop, quadruple stop, multiple stop) are specific to bowed string instruments. They are not used to refer to hitting multiple notes on a percussion instrument and they are not used to refer to any aspect of guitar playing. This is an important term to have in wikipedia, but this article needs serious work. I am inexperienced so I don't know if I am allowed, but I would say the correct procedure would be a nearly 100% rewrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.245.221.150 (talk) 11:33, 1 July 2007

From the Grove Dictionary of Music: "Multiple stopping. In the playing of bowed string instruments, the technique of sounding more than one note simultaneously. Playing on two strings at once is known as double stopping, three strings as triple stopping, etc.". No mention of instruments other than orchestral strings appears anywhere in the long article. From the Oxford Dictionary of Music (entire entry): "Double Stopping. Term used of str. instr., to indicate stopping and playing on 2 str. simultaneously to produce a 2‐part effect. Also used, loosely, when one or both of the str. are ‘open’." TheScotch (talk) 13:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

"All these terms (double stop, triple stop, quadruple stop, multiple stop) are specific to bowed string instruments." I don't understand why people here are making this claim. These terms most certainly do apply to guitars as any quick Google search can demonstrate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.129.7 (talk) 06:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Brass

The term double stop is also never used in the context of brass playing, so a brass player would not "give the impression of a double stop." In brass and winds, two notes sounding at once are called multiphonics.

The name double stop comes from the fact that, except in the cases where the double stop contains an open string, it requires two pitches to be stopped (fingered) simultaneously by the left hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.244.52.78 (talk) 18:48, 2 July 2007

Guitar

Guitar double stops - http://www.accessrock.com/IntermediateLessons/double.asp Not a highly used technique but one nevertheless. Worthy of mention as many artists encorperate this technique (slash of gnr fame being the most prominent) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.255.202 (talk) 08:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This is far from a reputable source. It is standard practice for chords played by orchestral strings to be called triple stops or quadruple stops, depending how many notes are involved, whereas as chords played on the guitar are never called triple, quadruple, quintuple, or sextuple stops. TheScotch (talk) 13:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

"chords played on the guitar are never called triple, quadruple, quintuple, or sextuple stops." Except they are. There are plenty of instructional sites and videos that refer to these terms for guitar playing. Heck, "guitar double stop" is even an autocomplete on Google Search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.129.7 (talk) 06:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Is a famous guitar manufacturer's site a reputable enough source? See http://www2.gibson.com/Lessons/Lesson-Of-The-Week/An-Introduction-to-Double-Stops.aspx

No. Grove and the Oxford Dictionary of Music specifically define double stop as applying to bow strings only. Also note: 1) The guitar was designed--many centuries ago--specifically to play chords (for this purpose simultaneous notes): all its strings lie on the same plane (so they can easily be struck at once), it's fretted (so pitch accuracy is not necessary, making all sorts of combinations practicable), and it's not bowed (so members of a chord need not be adjacent). Since chord playing is the normal technique on the guitar rather than a special technique, it doesn't require a special name. 3) Google-ing is generally meaningless. The Internet is filled with misinformation. Most of what is on the Internet, in fact, is misinformation--precisely because anyone can put stuff there.TheScotch (talk) 01:52, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I think this would all be resolved by simply adding a "guitar" section to the doublestop article. Although not widely thought of with concerns to the term, it is certainly present within guitar playing. You can address this in the tab if you want. Maybe I'll do it later if I'm not lazy. There we can add prominent guitar players and examples as well. I might just throw JIMI HENDRIX in guys. haha these heated talks. Just add a guitar tab! ~dunno how to sign these, guys. Don't care to either. ~s — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samaraedits*it (talk • contribs) 01:37, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Guitar double stops

Double stops are used on guitar (and other plucked instruments), but I wouldn't say that Slash is the most prominent guitarist applying the technique. Mark Knopfler or any other fingerstyle guitarist would be a better example. The strings have to be plucked simultaneously, strumming two adjacent strings with a pick is not a double stop, so at least two fingers have to be used.

The link provided by the above poster is a poor example, since this is the only correct way of playing a double stop: "5. Another way of playing these is to use your guitar pick and middle finger to pluck it." Naturally, any other finger can be used; the lesson assumes that a flatpick is being used.

An example in a section of fingerstyle guitar, Travis picking, contains three double stops (like the first notes in both bars). Another example is the song Dust in the Wind [1]

-- Kankkis (talk) 17:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

According to Kankkis, neither Chuck Berry nor Keith Richards would be a double stop guitar player. Well, I am sory, but this is complete nonsense. 172.162.119.173 (talk) 14:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Chuck Berry is THE double stop guitar player, the evangelist of the double stop rock and roll riff. If hitting two notes (fretted together) with a pick were "not playing them simultaneously", then no plectrum guitar player would be able to play chords at all in that view. BS. 87.122.114.97 (talk) 13:27, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Another sound exmple

This would be another example:

© Kevin MacLeod ^{www.incompetech.com}

Maybe, someone wants to include it to the article with a proper caption. --Scriberius (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

One sounding example is more than enough. If you've ever heard a violin, as nearly everyone has, you should be able easily to imagine the sound of a double stop. TheScotch (talk) 07:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Better example

Eine kleine Nachtmusik? Double-stopping is a striking effect when done on a solo string instrument. When its done as part of the opening chord by an entire string orchestra, the effect is muted by quite a bit. Isn't there an example from one of Bach's partitas that could be used? The super-famous Gavotte en Rondeau from the Partita in E has three double-stops in the opening phrase. There's got to be a public domain recording available. We shot a copy of it outside of the solar system with the Explorer probes. Thanks.DavidRF (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 01:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

You've been around long enough that you should understand why: WP:V. Where? Hmm... three unsourced sections maybe. What references? WP:RS. How? WP:CITE. Get it? - SummerPhD (talk) 21:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that the banner concerns the article's very questionable contention that the term "double stop" applies to instruments other than orchestral strings. TheScotch (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I've now removed a fair amount of questionable material and added five citations and two "citation needed" templates at specific points, thus, I think, obviating the continuing need for the banner. TheScotch (talk) 07:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Invention

The article currently states that "The invention of the double-stop is generally credited to violinist Carlo Farina, whose Capriccio Stravagante (1627) was published in Dresden while he was Court-Violinist at Saxony.[1]".

The citation is from Forsyth's Orchestration, which is a book I have on my shelf, and I'll try to remember to check it when I get home, but for now note that Grove, a more reliable source, seems to disagree: "The technique of multiple stopping seems to have developed early among viol players. It is described in Ganassi’s Regola rubertina (1542–3)." Grove does go on to mention the Stravagante piece as well as a piece using double stops written two years later by a certain Marini. Intuitively to me it seems that double stopping is a very obvious idea, one that any number of persons might have thought of independently, such that I would be very surprised if it could be determined to be the particular invention of a single composer. TheScotch (talk) 05:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I finally checked the Forsyth citation. It's accurate--in fact, each clause quotes Forsyth verbatim (with material between the clauses omitted), such that were this article to keep the remark, I think it would be best to surround it with quotation marks and attribute it to Forsyth within the body of the main text. Since this Farina apparently did not invent the double stop, however, I don't think the article should keep the remark. (The date in the Forsyth citation, by the way, is misleading. That's actually the date of the Dover unedited reprint, with a new introduction by William Bolcolm. The original edition is from 1914. ) TheScotch (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Notation

I think a brief section discussing the notation of triple stops and quadruple stops would be helpful. I notice both of the current article's examples show triple stops, but neither has the lower note with a separate stem and a small note value. This is a common notation, and it appears at the very beginning of the last movement of Beethoven's fifth symphony, among zillions of other places. TheScotch (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Early bows?

From the article: "The style of bow used until around the end of the 18th century, particularly in Germany, had the wood curved outwards (away from the hair), which made it somewhat easier to play three notes at the same time....even with a modern violin....

The New Grove would seem to contradict this notion: "The idea that the convex bow sticks of the Baroque period facilitated the playing of chords as chords (an idea promoted by the advocates of the unhistorical ‘Bach bow’; see Bow, §I, 6) is a myth. If anything, early bows (which are lighter and have a greater separation between hair and stick at the frog) encourage the spreading of chords and, in comparison to the Tourte bow, are not so tolerant of the kind of force required to make more than two strings sound simultaneously."" TheScotch (talk) 08:42, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Bach bow?

From the New Grove, David D. Boyden "Bow": "In the 20th century a so-called Bach bow was created to play the Bach solo violin sonatas and partitas ‘precisely as written’. This goal was based on the misconception that the chords in these works were intended to be sustained as written. The existence of a highly arched bow on which the hair could be loosened and tightened was postulated by Arnold Schering and Albert Schweitzer at the beginning of the century and such a bow was built by Rolf Schröder in 1933."

If the Bach bow was "postulated by Arnold Schering and Albert Schweitzer...and...built by Rolf Schröder", how could it have been invented by Telmanyi? TheScotch (talk) 06:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

From Grove, Noel Goodwin, "Telmanyi": "Telmányi's interest in problems of performing Baroque music led him to bring about the construction of a special violin bow (named the ‘Vega’ bow in 1954) with a curved back and a mechanism for instantly tightening or loosening the hairs. He used this in his recordings of Bach's solo violin music, and demonstrated it widely in 1955. It was favourably received as a means of playing true chords across the strings softly as well as loudly, avoiding the usual arpeggio effect, but its use did not become widespread."

From the Oxford Dictionary of Music, "Telmanyi": "[Telmanyi] Supervised invention of special Vega (arched) bow ( 1954 ) for perf. of Bach's vn. works."

Apparently the "Bach bow" and the "Vega bow" are not the same thing, although they would seem to be related. Possibly the "Vega bow" is a kind of "Bach bow", but I don't have enough information to say for sure. TheScotch (talk) 02:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Bridge "almost flat"?

Re: "On most instruments, the bridge is curved enough to make it difficult to play three strings at once, but on some violins the bridge is shaved down until almost flat, making it far easier to triple stop, as well as to alternate double stopping on different pairs of strings (D–A to A–E for example). The compromise is that more skill is needed to avoid playing a double stop when none is called for."

If the bridge were flat it would be impossible to bow an individual inner string. If the bridge were virtually flat it would be virtually impossible to bow an individual inner string. If the bridge were "almost flat" it would be almost impossible to bow an individual inner string--no matter how "skilled" the performer. Alternating double stops on different pairs of adjacent strings, on the other hand, is no problem at all for even a beginning player with a normal bridge. Altogether, this passage sounds to me like nonsense. In any case, I've discovered no evidence for the use of "almost flat" violin bridges, and the article provides no source for this passage. I'm now going to delete it, but if someone can clarify it with a citation from a reputable source it may return in some form. TheScotch (talk) 01:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Marching percussion double stops

Double stops are commonly used in marching drum writing. In the case of the snare, a double stop is when a drummer hits the drum with both hands at the same time, and the tenors hit 2 drums at once. These are usually notated with either single note (snare) or a stacked note (tenor). A double stop has a B or b written in for sticking.

Should this be added to the page? I feel it is a pretty important detail, but I don't want to go adding random things without approval. Ryan56DCIfan (talk) 14:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Images aren't double stops

Neither of the the images shown on the page have double stops in them. Should they be removed and/or changed? WikipediaUser321 (talk) 00:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)