Talk:Huineng

Inclusion of an anecdote

Extra material

i think the ending of the last paragraph should include the story that once he was given the robe and the begging bowl(the symbols for becoming the next Zen pratiarch) he was asked to leave straight away by the 5 patriarch, as other contenders were going to kill him(out of jeaulousy). And while on scaping he was pursued by one of the monks who was renown for his bad temper, he managed to catch up to Hui Neng. Hui Neng, decided to leave the robe and begging bowl to his pursuer, but it turn out this monk was pursuing Hui Neng because he wanted to learn from Hui Neng, rather then harming him.

And if im not wrong he actually spent almost 10 years living with hunters to disguise his true background as the 6th Zen patriarch.

Im sorry that the above information i dont have source from were it was acquired from officially. This was told on a chinese based literature.

The proper Pinyin transcription for this name is Huineng, and not Hui Neng. This should not have been turned into a redirect. It is this kind of activity on the part of people who do not know what they are doing that discourages me from further participation in this project. -- Charles Muller

wrong translation

The line:"Bodhi is no tree, nor standing mirror bright. Since all is originally empty, where does the dust alight?" is according to my opinion incorrect. The subject of the first sentence is "Bodhi" and it is also the subject of the second sentence.

It should be: "There is no Bodhi-tree, Nor stand of a mirror bright. Since all is void, Where can the dust alight?" [1] (wereldburger758)

change of content

By simply adding the words:" Nor is the mind a standing mirror bright, I made the poem correct. (wereldburger758)

References

There are no references for the story of Huineng receiving transmission. This should be referenced so that the story can be checked. The gatha translation should also be referenced. Who translated this? Thinman10

Huineng Gatha Translation

The body is a Bodhi tree,

the mind a mirror bright.

It must be polished constantly,

to let no dust alight.

The gatha of Shenxiu speaks about the body being the Bodhi Tree and the mind being like a bright mirror. Most people would agree about the translation in the second line of the Huineng gatha, which states that the "bright mirror also has no platform." This is drawing a similarity between the second line and the first line. In the first line (菩提本無樹), the word 本 is used, which has several meanings. The most common of which is the roots of a plant. With these two points in mind, we should expect that Huineng would be speaking about the Bodhi Tree and the bright mirror of Shenxiu's gatha, and using the lines in similar ways to address both. Since he states that the bright mirror has no basis (platform), then what about the Bodhi Tree? Naturally, since the lines are used in similar ways, he is saying that it also has no basis (roots). In the third and fourth lines, he uses the first two lines to question Shenxiu's instruction. Shenxiu's gatha is correct, but it is not the best. Huineng's gatha is also correct, but it is still not the highest. Hongren is correct that neither has yet seen his true nature, which is why Huineng still needs to be instructed about the meaning of the Diamond Sutra.

菩提本無樹,

明鏡亦非台;

本來無一物,

何處惹塵埃?

Translating the words simply:

bo-dhi root-less tree

bright mirror also/likewise no platform

fundamentally not one thing

what place cause/provoke dust

In other words:

The Bodhi Tree, it has no roots,

No base the mirror bright;

Since all is void, is emptiness,

Where can the dust alight?

If we say "Bodhi isn't a tree", or "The roots of Bodhi are not a tree", where did that come from? It isn't consistent with Huineng's own stated similarity (亦非台) between the first and second lines, the usage of the word 本, or with the respective subjects of Shenxiu's gatha (body: Bodhi Tree, mind: bright mirror). In some ways, I'm guessing that people are not familiar with the various uses of the word 無, which can apply to words before it, as "-less". Hence, "rootless", rather than "no tree".

"Equanimity"

Hi @Foristslow,

While I think equanimity is certainly in keeping with the spirit of Huineng's teachings, it's not a term he actually used. Perhaps some secondary source makes a connection between Huineng's teachings and the earlier Buddhist teaching on upekṣā (equanimity). In that case, you could have something like "according to so-and-so, Huineng's teaching resembles upekṣā" and provide a source. But absent some citation like that, the term seems a little out of place.

Regarding the appropriateness of the word "embrace" which you brought up, it was used by Huineng. See the quote by Huineng which I provided shortly below my use of the term ("the essence of mind is great because it embraces all things, since all things are within our nature").

Also, the scholar Brook Ziporyn uses it, who I cited as a source. Ziporyn says:

"...Huineng suggests that our real self-nature is free of them [attributes]. But our self-nature is free of them not in the sense of excluding them but in the sense of embracing all of them without prejudice, without partiality, without limit: our self-nature is like space, and these attributes of particular things are like the things appearing in space." (Brook Ziporyn, Readings of the Platform Sutra, edited by Morten Schlütter & Stephen F. Teiser, page 166, Columbia University Press, 2012). Likes Thai Food (talk) 00:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

You also inserted the word equanimity right into the section corresponding to my Ziporyn citation. This makes it seem like equanimity occurs in the Ziporyn source, where it does not. Likes Thai Food (talk) 00:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou for your reply, remember that the text is a translation to English, The meaning of the character that was used in classical text has many synonyms pointing to it's Intention. Please can you provide me with the original Chinese character that you are using from The Sixth Patriach that has the literal translation of embrace. 🙏🏼 Foristslow (talk) 01:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Foristslow,

Alas, I do not have the Chinese character at hand which has been translated as embrace in the above quotation. But the McRae translation also gives embrace for the same passage: "Good friends, the space of this world embraces within itself the myriad things and [all] the images of form." [McRae, Platform Sutra, page 29] And the term embrace also occurs in secondary sources, so this should be good enough for our encyclopedic standards. At any rate, regarding equanimity, as it turns out, you're in luck. I did a word search of McRae's Platform Sutra and the word equanimity does occur once, under a discussion of the Pure Land being within us. It says: "Compassion is Avalokiteśvara, joy and equanimity are Mahāsthamaprāpta, the ability to purify is Śākyamuni, and universal directness is Amitābha." [McRae, Platform Sutra, page 39] This would seem to be good enough for me. And while this term does not occur anywhere else in the Platform Sutra, I am happy to let this issue go. Likes Thai Food (talk) 01:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Now we need to figure out what to do with the influences and history subsection. Likes Thai Food (talk) 01:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I prefer your original argument, LTF; the Ziporyn-quote is a beautifull quote; another enlightening moment. "Embrace" is of a somewhat different spirit (...) than "equanimity"; embrace implies seeing things completely as they are, while equanimity suggests effort to reach a serene state (without thoughts). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, while equanimity does appear in the Platform Sutra, I suppose there is still the issue of inserting the term into a sentence that corresponds to the Ziporyn citation, in which equanimity does not occur. Likes Thai Food (talk) 04:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I have included a reference from the platform sutra from a Venerable that is a translation from the Chinese term, please remember that the native language is polymorphic in nature opposed to english, what sounds good to one may not resound to others because life is very intersectional. Best to describe this with flow and not one form. The conditions for Meditation is forever changing as is nature. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Foristslow (talk) 08:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Influences and history subsection under "teachings"

Hi @Foristslow,

I did not delete the paragraph which you have replaced under the subsection now titled Influences and History of the Sudden Enlightenment Doctrine, which occurs under the larger Teachings section. Rather, I moved it down to the Historical Impact section. So, as of this moment, said paragraph actually occurs in both sections. Obviously, it should not be in two sections at once, so we need to decide which section should be its permanent home. I moved it because it is not really about the teaching of sudden enlightenment per se, but rather about the historical background of the Northern/Southern School split and the influence of sudden enlightenment on the later Ch'an tradition. Therefore, I feel its natural home should not be under the Teachings section but in the Historical Impact section. This seems pretty transparent to me. But perhaps you have a different opinion. Likes Thai Food (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @Foristslow,

Glad we could resolve the equanimity issue. Did you see this discussion topic which I created? I think it may have slipped through the cracks in the course of the equanimity discussion. Likes Thai Food (talk) 12:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, that section is just about the historical impact of "sudden" doctrine, not about Huineng's own teachings per se. Since there was a duplicate passage in both section, I removed the one under the teachings section Javier F.V. 14:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)