Talk:Elon Musk
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Q1: Can I write a message to Elon Musk here? (No.)
A1: No. The "Talk:Elon Musk" page is not for writing messages to Musk. It is only for discussing changes to the Wikipedia article about him. Writing a message to Musk here is pointless and disruptive, and such messages will be removed as an improper use of the page. Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.)
A2: No. Musk once suggested in an interview that his Wikipedia article be changed to describe him as a "business magnet" rather than a magnate. The tone of that interview was not very serious; he also claimed to be an alien.[1] Wikipedia doesn't have to do what Musk says, and this request has been made and declined dozens of times already. New requests may be removed without a response so that other discussions are not disrupted. Q3: Should Musk be identified as South African in the opening sentence?
A3: Musk is a US citizen (since 2002) born and raised in South Africa, and also acquired Canadian citizenship via his mother. Including these nationalities in the opening sentence in a balanced way would be complex, and the consensus is that they should instead be explained later in the lead. Q4: Can you change "Tesla CEO" to "Tesla Technoking"?
A4: No, because he is still CEO according to company records and that is a common corporate title that readers will understand, unlike "Technoking". The goal of the article is to inform people, which would be hindered by raising a confusing technicality. Q5: Should the mention of Errol Musk having an interest in an emerald mine be removed in view of Elon's denials?
A5: While Elon today vehemently disputes any history with an emerald mine, he formerly accepted and even confirmed it. Specifically, a 2014 report originally printed in the San Jose Mercury News (and cited in the article) stated that Errol Musk had "a stake in" a mine. Elon affirmed his father's mine involvement in an interview with Jim Clash, a career interviewer of public figures, that was published by Forbes and withdrawn without explanation a few months later. Elon biographer Ashlee Vance likewise confirmed Errol's mining interest, with Elon's objections but not denials, in a 2020 interview report with Elon. Errol has stated that he received hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of emeralds from his dealings. Q6: Should "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" be "Bachelor of Science" instead?
A6: No. Although it may seem counterintuitive, "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" is the degree that the University of Pennsylvania (among other schools) awards. Q7: Should the article acknowledge doubts about Musk's academic record?
A7: Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons requires that negative information about a person must be attributed to reliable published sources, and excludes both self-published sources (e.g. Twitter threads) and court trial records. The article states that sources disagree about when Musk obtained bachelor degrees, and that he did not attend Stanford for any significant amount of time. Any doubts beyond this require appropriate sources. Q8: Why doesn't this article describe Musk as an engineer?
A8: Musk is chief engineer of SpaceX, a title that applies within the company and that the press regularly mentions. He is not a professional engineer, a distinction within engineering that carries certain legal privileges in the United States, nor has he completed an engineering training program, nor has he ever been hired as an engineer. The article therefore does not include any of these claims. It does note that, from time to time, Musk has made initial product proposals at his companies that his trained engineers then research and develop. He does hold IEEE Honorary Membership. Q9: Why doesn't the article identify Musk as co-founder of PayPal?
A9: Because that could mislead readers that Musk was involved in the creation of the PayPal service and brand, when he was not. Instead, as the article states, he co-founded a company (X.com Corporation) that acquired the company that had developed PayPal (Confinity Inc.) and then renamed itself as PayPal, Inc. Q10: Why does this page include criticism of Musk's actions and stances?
A10: Musk is criticized/praised a lot in many reliable sources, and as such we need to talk about these criticisms and praise. To quote from Wikipedia's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Q11: Why is this a "good article" when some people consider Musk a bad person?
A11: "Good article" on Wikipedia refers to the way the article is written, not what kind of person Musk is. Good articles have been found to satisfy Wikipedia editorial standards for accuracy, verifiability and balanced presentation. Q12: Why doesn't this page call Musk African American?
A12: African Americans are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Reliable sources do not use this term to describe Musk. References
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Where do we want to cover the Errol stuff?
[edit]Errol has falsely claimed to have funded Zip2, was reliably accused of abuse of his wife and children, reportedly suffers from very severe mental illness, and fathered two children with his former stepdaughter. He also claims to have shot and killed multiple people.
On the one hand, Errol's primary notability (aside from 1970s politics) is from the abuse allegations against him. I created Familial relationships of Errol Musk try to get that info OFF Elon and Maye's respective BLPs -- you don't document an abuser on their victim's BLP; but that article has its own problems because it doesn't cover Errol's political career like a BLP should.
Where should we put what is known about Errol? If he weren't a media figure with famous family, perhaps we could just delete him away, but because he's become a media gadfly, it's not fair to Elon et al for us to NOT document his behavior somewhere. Could we put it in a sub-article of Elon's or Maye's BLP? Feoffer (talk) 10:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Errol's primary notability is being the father of Elon, and Wikipedia is not a soapbox for scandalmongering even if is done in the name of fairness. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:F957:2BB0:729:9CD1 (talk) 01:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are you seriously claiming that this is, quote, "Scandalmongering: promoting things "heard through the grapevine" or gossiping"?
- I think you're confusing "scandalmongering" with "extremely widely covered scandals that have drawn massive amounts of public interest". Like, I'd wager that probably 20% or so of the US population have heard of "the emerald mine", even if they can't name Errol by name.
- And while we're here, I'll add as an aside that I think it's wrong to mention Haldeman's move to South Africa and living like Indiana Jones, while omitting the fact that he moved to South Africa because he was a massive supporter of Apartheid. I'm not going to be [WP:B] without support from others on this topic, however. -- Rei (talk) 03:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm saying that creating an article about Errol primarily to document his scandals would be an attack page. Being a rotten bastard isn't a ticket to having a Wikipedia page. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:188C:EEBE:3AC7:1073 (talk) 04:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Consensus about interviews with otherwise unreliable sources
[edit]Hey, quick question - Elon did an interview with Jordan Peterson recently that was streamed on the Daily Wire. Not a reliable source normally, but here it’s straight from the horse’s mouth. What are everyone’s feelings on using articles quoting that interview as a source for such? Snokalok (talk) 23:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Let's wait a day or two and see if a more reliable publication reports on the contents of the interview (as I suspect one will). QRep2020 (talk) 01:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Since it is a video interview and it would pass the verifiability test, it seems good to me. Any other publication will simply repost the original video, no not sure how that improves anything. Just my thoughts. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2024
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Much of the below paragraph is largely embellished and misrepresent the facts. The articles referenced are subjective opinion pieces. Much of what is written in the paragraph also echos the opinions of the articles, and whomever wrote the paragraph initially. This should state facts only, and not be embellished or stuffed full of unqualifiable opinions. Below is the original paragraph, and a rewrite:
Please change X: Musk has expressed views that have made him a polarizing figure.[5] He has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation, promoting right-wing conspiracy theories, and "endorsing an antisemitic theory",[6] the latter of which he later apologized for.[5][7] His ownership of Twitter has been similarly controversial, being marked by layoffs of large numbers of employees, an increase in hate speech, misinformation and disinformation posts on the website, and changes to Twitter Blue verification.
To Y: Musk has been seen as a polarizing figure. He has criticized COVID-19, made comments that would generally support right-wing ideas, and made a comment regarding a version of the “great replacement theory." He later apologized for this statement. Upon acquisition of Twitter, Musk laid off a large number of employees and make changes to the "Twitter Blue" verification system. Mst3kfan13 (talk) 19:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please educate yourself about the many Talk page discussions concerning this paragraph first. QRep2020 (talk) 03:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit extended-protected}}
template. Change noted as controversial due to response received above, changes to controversial topics are likely to need consensus on this page. ASUKITE 16:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Musk's daughter has gone public - time to include her name?
[edit]First she wrote a critical response on Threads to Elon's interview, then followed it up with [1] an interview with NBC - and under her name, not an alias / anonymously.
My read is that we should probably include her name now instead of just referencing her indirectly, now that she's no longer trying to remain private (indeed, she refers to herself as "an H-list celebrity" on her Threads account). -- Rei (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makes sense to me. WP:BLPNAME is for low-profile persons. I think going public with interviews etc. entails a choice to forgo the privacy of a low-profile, private person. Endwise (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
"Still alive"
[edit]I made this change because it seemed pretty unnecessary to specify this. First because the NBC interview makes it obvious, and also because it was evident that Musk spoke figuratively. It would have been obvious even he hadn't used the word "essentially".
Did anyone in the media or in the public think that his child was literally dead ? If so, the NBC interview would have been treated as some kind of breaking news, which it wasn't. What do you think ? Psychloppos (talk) 08:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- The passage as a whole seems of undue length. I don't see why the Financial Times quote is there at all. If Musk believes in a neo-Marxist menace, it suffices to say that he believes it. Whether it exists or other people believe in it is irrelevant for the purpose of this article. More broadly, there is no basis in NPOV to quote directly so long as the sources are faithfully represented, and doing so makes for tiresome reading. 98.51.228.103 (talk) 16:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- What is most relevant is Musk's statements about his child, which have attracted media attention lately. The fact that he attributes the situation to a tangential menace is tangential. A direct quote may help avoid misquoting him. Psychloppos (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024
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Change "12" in infobox ("Children") to "12, including Vivian Jenna Wilson", because an article has been created. J3133 (talk) 08:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- On hold until Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vivian Jenna Wilson is closed. No point in adding the link if it will need to get removed shortly afterwards. If the article is kept, please re-open the request. Left guide (talk) 01:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Replace "businessman and investor" with "business magnate" in Lead
[edit]A business magnate is essentially both. It is a more clear way of writing it, like it is done in the articles for Carlos Slim and Li Ka-shing for example. PhotographyEdits (talk) 19:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- In general we've been trying to move away from business magnate and similar because they're value laden labels (its likely that Slim and Li will have it removed at some point), to quote liberally from the page you linked "Such individuals have been known by different terms throughout history, such as robber barons, captains of industry, moguls, oligarchs, plutocrats, or tai-pans." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do think that 'businessman' understates his importance and power. A person with a net worth of 100k USD is also a businessman, but not really a magnate. I would argue using a stronger term here is better. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- A person who identified as a man with 100x money as him who earned it in a similar way would also be a businessman... The second half of the sentence speaks to the importance and power. I would also note that a person with a net worth of zero may also be a business man as can someone with a net worth of negative one billion... Businessman doesn't suggest an income level. If its importance and power you wish to convey than a different value laden label like "plutocrat" or "oligarch" would fit your purposes better, but I don't think we should be using any value laden labels at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Second. QRep2020 (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- A person who identified as a man with 100x money as him who earned it in a similar way would also be a businessman... The second half of the sentence speaks to the importance and power. I would also note that a person with a net worth of zero may also be a business man as can someone with a net worth of negative one billion... Businessman doesn't suggest an income level. If its importance and power you wish to convey than a different value laden label like "plutocrat" or "oligarch" would fit your purposes better, but I don't think we should be using any value laden labels at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do think that 'businessman' understates his importance and power. A person with a net worth of 100k USD is also a businessman, but not really a magnate. I would argue using a stronger term here is better. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- As the FAQ notes, the phrase "business magnate" in this article was a perennial target for frivolous edit requests. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:B948:CE1F:F8AA:83BB (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- That was a pun from himself it seems, and we obviously do not have to honor that one. But it does not object against 'business magnate' it seems. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Err yes it does Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.) A2: No... that seems a pretty clear objection. Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- it says business *magnet* not business *magnATE*. It is a pun from Musk. PhotographyEdits (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, but the talk page archive has the question of "magnATE" raised (and rej4ected), many times. Maybe we need to add this to the FAQ? Slatersteven (talk) 12:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Check the archives. We discussed this at length already. QRep2020 (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- it says business *magnet* not business *magnATE*. It is a pun from Musk. PhotographyEdits (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- AFAIK, there was no consensus to remove business magnate in the last two discussions (here and here), but the same two editors who wanted it removed invoked WP:BLPRESTORE and that was it. Ptrnext (talk) 06:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- The point in regard to the FAQ is that "business magnate" was a target of disruption, and I promise you that it would be again if it were restored. Musk fans struggle mightily with comedic timing. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:B494:44BE:C294:C4E0 (talk) 02:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Err yes it does Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.) A2: No... that seems a pretty clear objection. Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- That was a pun from himself it seems, and we obviously do not have to honor that one. But it does not object against 'business magnate' it seems. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 August 2024
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Personal Life Section, Legal Issues After 2020 heading, 3rd Paragraph, final sentence grammar update.
Change “On July 27, 2024, Grimes' mother accused Musk for withhold passports of her grandchildren.” to “ On July 27, 2024, Grimes' mother accused Musk of withholding the passports of her grandchildren.” Moirathegoblin (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done , thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2024
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In the Politics subheading of the Other Activities section, should [this story] about Musk forming America PAC and how it is potentially farming swing state voter data be included in the paragraph about his support of Trump's campaign? Coalah (talk) 04:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- The story is covered in the WP article about America PAC so I think it warrants inclusion here, as well. Coalah (talk) 04:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added that Musk said he "created" America PAC. QRep2020 (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
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